|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
37.130.229.149
Uptone just announced the upcoming power supply that will be available in July (estimate). Designed by Alex Crespi and John Swenson,It can be used with the UpTone Regen, the Sonore microRendu, or other components.
Input is 7.5-12VDC.
Output, however, is 3.3, 5 or 7 VDC.
Price: $349
For informational purposes only.
Edits: 05/15/16 05/15/16Follow Ups:
Certainly a place for the plug and p(l)ay product but my instinct is the simpler approach would be better sounding. Though I realize it is not for the non-DIY types.
Funny you mention Jkeny...his DAC has a very interesting power scheme...battery powered with a clever charging protocol.
He is very much obsessed with power but tried to operate within the realm of affordability and practicality and gets great results..his DAC sounds very nice.
conditions the output of the "first" AC--> DC linear?
See link:
.
The output of the feeder supply never affects the output of the LPS-1 as it is completely isolated. However, they are still concerned with any noise inherent in the "feeder supply" getting back into the AC mains.In some designs that use ultracaps, the charger is completely removed from the AC mains during operation so there is no concern with inherent charger ("feeder supply") noise getting back into the mains during operation. But again, these products (Blue Circle preamp for example) don't use complex bank switching and they charge the ultracaps only when the preamp is not in operation.
The comments below tell me that the LPS-1 "feeder supply" (charger/energizer) is always connected to the AC mains.... which makes sense for automated charging and bank switching so there is still concern for any noise generated by the "feeder supply" itself getting back into the AC mains.
We are working on an unusual hybrid feeder supply, which has a transformer and diodes but uses a high quality switching regulator. The result is supply that has extremely low noise back into the mains, less than most linears, but still has some noise on the output DC, but that doesn't matter because the LPS-1 could care less about the quality of the DC feeding it.
The MOST important thing to understand in any of these discussions about choice of "energizing" supply, is that there is NOTHING about the quality of it that can have ANY effect whatsoever on the quality of the OUTPUT from the UltraCap LPS-1.
Edits: 05/16/16
From Alex,
""that the output from our linear power supply was 100% isolated from whatever circuits would be charging these battery/capacitor-like ultracapacitors, so that nothing from the wall is even remotely connected. That requires two strings of ultracaps, with circuitry silently switching between them.""
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
The objective is to "clean" the output of the "feeder". Or said another way, to render the feeder quality unimportant.
Yes.
Abe has a good point in that while using a crappy switcher may not effect the output going to the device, it may spew its noise back into the AC which must be dealt with for other components.
Think of the feeder as just a charger, to charge the ultracaps. Once bank A is charged, the device is powered strictly from the bank A ultracaps which are now automatically disconnected from the charger. So the "cleanliness" of the LPS-1 output is not at all dependent on the "cleanliness" of the charger/feeder at the LPS-1 input .But.... that charger/feeder is always connected to the AC mains and -could be- putting noise back into the AC mains. The charger/feeder is used to alternate it's charge between bank A and bank B. When bank A is depleted, bank B is brought online at which time bank A is put on charge. And the LPS-1 automatically alternates between bank A and B with the aid of the feeder/charger keeping the banks charged.
Lager ultracaps could be used for a much simpler single bank design and complete electrical removal of the charger/feeder during operation. Blue Circle does it this way on their BC-109 linestage with a much larger bank of ultracaps - at a much higher cost - and the penalty of not being able to take advantage of the ultracaps while they are charging. But it is very elegantly simple compared to dual banks of ultracaps, FPGA controller & software, 10 optocouplers, AD converters, etc.
Edits: 05/16/16
Almost like an automated batter charging system.
While its not as convenient, I purchased a 5V 2A Jockery battery (really a phone charger) to power my Squeezebox Touch player.
While it is superior to the crappy original wall wart, I don't find any improvement using it over the Welborne Labs 3A linear supply I use most often.
Hi and sorry to jump in
When you say" I purchased a 5V 2A Jockery battery (really a phone charger) to power my Squeezebox Touch player. "
do you mean this product here ?
http://www.amazon.com/Jackery-Bar-External-Battery-Charger/dp/B00AANMVNQ
" While it is superior to the crappy original wall wart, I don't find any improvement using it over the Welborne Labs 3A linear supply I use most often "
do you mean that are on a par ? because this says a lot about the high quality of the charger. The Welborne Labs 3A linear supply is indeed a very good one.
Thanks a lot.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 05/17/16 05/17/16 05/17/16
No problemo!
do you mean this product here ?
No, I have the "Giant" with twice the current capability. Here's a link . I had to cobble a power cord together.
do you mean that are on a par ? because this says a lot about the high quality of the charger.
Yes. The $25 battery is equivalent in performance to the $250 linear - albeit not as convenient given the frequent need to recharge.
Just a quick comment on those USB batteries. Most of them use one or more 3.2 - 3.7V Lithium Ion batteries within but require a boost converter chip (a switching DC-DC converter) to achieve their 5V output. So any noise associated with that switching frequency could be riding on your USB battery 5V output. But.... it IS easier to capacitor filter higher frequencies vs 60Hz line freq.You do not get a clean output directly off the Li battery itself.
Functional Diagram of the TI USB boost converter part as an example:
Edits: 05/17/16
Doesn't matter to me in that the linear works very well.
Powering the Touch with a battery was an experiment and the unit works fine for its intended purpose.
Absolutely, what you hear is what counts most.
Hi ! thanks for the very kind and helpful reply.
Yes ! the questions were two ... sorry." No problemo! No, I have the "Giant" with twice the current capability. Here's a link. I had to cobble a power cord together.
Yes. The $25 battery is equivalent in performance to the $250 linear - albeit not as convenient given the frequent need to recharge "very very helpful and interesting. I will buy one to try out.
Yes. You are right about the recharge cycle being a pain.
I am searching a power solution for a usb to spdif converter usb powered (i do not know the mA required) i have at hand.
Maybe i have to buy a usb multimeter and check first the consumption.
IMHE the quality of the power supply matters a lot.
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 05/17/16 05/17/16 05/17/16
IMHE the quality of the power supply matters a lot.
Agreed. I find a big difference using the linear or the battery vs the crappy switcher. Top end is clearer with less false brightness and noise.
To be honest i am using now a Samsung charger with a cheap dc filter i found on ebay. I have to buy something serious because the sound is nice.
But i would like to measure first the power consumption of these units.
I do not have specifications. I have seen usb voltmeters on ebay.
Batteries are also very nice but as you say not very handy,
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg
That has sort of been my experience with batteries/DACs. Though I could live with the sonics, especially with 'phones, I didn't think the hassle was worth it. Different battery chemistries sound different too...as though I need any more audio snakes to wrestle...
In "better days", Ron was very helpful to me on PS details. His linear supplies stand up quite well still. Simple, but he hits all the nails squarely, for most apps where you need a bit of quiet juice.
A "feeder" charger, for the ultra-caps in the F1, (second, DC input) power supply.
Since it's isolated, & generates a new FPGA controlled DC. The device that charges the CAPs, could be a battery too..
So, - it's really being used as a 2 part supply.
I doubt that this is the case here, but with some of the BC amps, the CAPS can be charged overnight, and then the amp played for four of 5 hours without being plugged into the wall.....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Input is 7.5-12VDC.
Output, however, is 3.3, 5 or 7 VDC.
It appears to me that the use of ultracap based power for audio applications isn't entirely new. Swenson mentions the Vinnie Rossi LIO component system. Blue Circle has been shipping their BC-109 ultracap powered linestage since around 2010. The benefit of using ultracaps in audio applications is well known. Car audio enthusiasts have been using large ultracaps to augment automotive 12v systems for years, mainly for transient current demand.
The R&D effort and complexity of the LPS-1 revolves mostly around bank switching and charging of the ultracaps. Additionally, it supports a wide range of DC input voltage for charging and provides 3 output voltages. So in this respect it is unique and versatile. But it is the ultracap itself that offers the core benefit of such a power supply design.
In the case of Blue Circle, they do not do ultracap bank switching but the AC mains are completely removed from the BC-109 linestage during operation, realizing the full benefit of utracaps in powering the linestage.
I wonder what other audio manufacturers are using utracaps as their primary power source.
Interesting, I guess I haven't been following this "trend" very closely...
In the microRendu thread, in one of my usual OT branches, I called the PS for the Hydra Z (a USB converter) weird etc., because it seemed to me, by how it was described, as some kind of "electronic battery". It seems to function exactly how you described.
I would not mind this kind of PS to power gadgets. I am not sure how it would be for DACs though. Battery-powered DACs sound very dry to me, quiet to be sure, but they seem to lack some of the sonic dynamics they have when powered by a more "flexible" supply. But this ultra-cap supply may be somewhere in-between, offer the good part without (to me) the downside. I'll have to try one, PSs are so important, not worth taking a chance I might be missing a good thing...
Indeed, Ultracaps are not new and Hydra was introduced quite a while ago. The problem was the cost.
The cheap Chinese DDR3 memory filter uses a form of ultra cap and works.
This is a pointless response to what I posted
your response to your own post was "pointless"?
Thanks for the heads up!
nt
Yeah, I thought that was pretty funny too but I didn't want to embarrass him too much. He's perfectly capable of doing that on his own, as witnessed here. ;-)
Small ~1 Farad ultracaps have been in practical use for several decades for memory backup applications in computers. The challenge was to make much larger capacities and lower cost for power applications. There's probably a couple dozen ultracap manufacturers today.
Their use in audio equipment power supplies is not revolutionary by any means.
...but in my setup there are 6 25-Farad ultracaps in series for a 12vdc application. This thing is passive in that there is no CPU, FPGA, programming, A/D converters, etc. Also, it does not power my devices standalone but augments an existing power source.Just a common RC time constant based soft-start circuit is used to initiate the ultracaps in pre-charge mode thru a current limit power resistor. Once sufficiently charged, the resistor is shorted by the relay as the output goes "live".
In this test setup I used my 5-Amp lab power supply that goes into current limit and shuts down if the current draw is greater than about 5.5-Amps. It will not start the Mac Mini as the Mini draws upwards of 7-Amps or so for a brief time during bootup before it settles down to about 1-Amp steady state.
With the ultracaps in place and pre-charged, it augments the power supply allowing the Mini to boot up then settles down to less than 1-Amp current draw at 12v.
Six 25-Farad ultracaps connected in series with passive charge balancing across each cap
Current-limit power resistor (white) to control inrush current into low ESR caps
Capacitors still charging according to the charging indicator LED
Powering the Mac Mini via lab grade linear power supply augmented by ultracaps
Interesting. That Hydra ZPM you mentioned does in fact use a couple Maxwell D Cell ultracaps (which are actually a bit larger than a D cell battery). They're not real specific on how it operates except that it incorporates the ultracaps with a linear power supply.
Edits: 05/16/16
I read an old post of your comparing ops's with your conclusion that you could hear little/no differences. Is that still true? It looks like you've upgraded to an Agilent LPS.
The Agilent LPS is a laboratory grade bench power supply with instrumentation that I use whenever I need a general purpose LPS for experimentation. My main LPS for the Mac Mini is a 10-Amp unit from TeraDak.
The setup that I photographed was to show an example of ultracaps in use. The Agilent LPS alone will not bootup my Mac Mini. The Agilent LPS is rated for an absolute maximum of 5.50-Amps and will safely shut itself down if a device draws more current than that. Because the Mini draws around 7-Amps for a brief period of time (1 or 2 seconds) during bootup, the Agilent shuts itself down and the Mini will not boot.
With ultracaps in the conditioner box pre-charged and attached to the Agilent LPS, the Mini is able to fully boot up as the ultracaps augment the available power from the Agilent helping it to get over it's 5.50-Amp limitation. After bootup the current demand rapidly tapers down to around 1-Amp stead state.
The ultracap conditioner that I photographed is made by MFJ and a typical use for this device is with HAM Radio transceivers that can draw peak currents of upwards of 20 - 25 Amps when transmitting. This would normally not be a problem in a mobile installation if the transceiver is wired directly to the car battery. However, most automotive 12v accessory sockets (cigarette lighter jack) are not rated to supply more than 10-Amps. The ultracap box allows one to run the transceiver off the 10-Amp cigarette lighter jack in communications modes that are not 100% duty cycle. Examples would include CW Morse code (~45% duty cycle) and SSB voice communications (~20% - 30% duty cycle).
In this case, the ultracaps also helped the Agilent LPS get over the 5.50-Amp "hump" in booting the Mac Mini and they provide additional filtering.
Thanks for the description, but you didn't answer the question. Do you find your Teradak an improvement? I read another thread where you found LPS's did not make any noticeable improvement. Just wondering if you've reconsidered, or what else may have changed. Thank you.
In my experience the outboard LPS on the Mac Mini offers some perceptible improvement but is relatively tiny compared to other areas including choice of DAC, USB isolation, choice of player software, and tweaks to the OS. Yes the LPS makes a difference in my system. No, it does not offer a huge benefit. YMMV.
And No, I do not normally use the Agilent LPS for the Mac as that is reserved for projects and experimentation.
Choice of software? What are you using? I also have a Mac Mini. Streaming Tidal.
I don't stream much. Most of what I play was either ripped from my CD collection or hi-res downloads. Presently using Audirvana Plus. I've tried Pure Music, Amarra, BitPerfect, and HQplayer (on another Mac).
What is the big secret??? It is an MJF4403... smh
IT Solutions Architect & Technical Sales ??????? Whatever this means by way of technical expertise and knowledge.
Don't know...
But it was pretty stupid to act like he designed or built something. The gentleman asked (was it his board) where can he find one... He sent a private message. lol... Weird and embarrassing behavior, maybe typical for a 12 year old, not an adult.
Thought you'd learned your lesson by now?
How is that an insult? I think your friend just insulted the entire group by his actions with his big secret. lol
to posted expertise. Why would you say that it is an insult?
Congratulations Dick Tracy! It says MFJ right on top the blue relay housing.
Wow, they are a lot smaller than I thought they would be. I didn't catch on to the fact that "D Cell Ultra-caps" were D-cell-sized...absolutely clueless... I must play with these. I have never used anything larger than 1-2F or so, lower voltage too.
Is that your own PCB, or could you provide details? Not that I couldn't do my own, but the charging *is* a bit of a mystery to me at this point, so I'd have to breadboard something first. Actually the automatic disconnecting of the charging when complete is the mystery. There'll be a chip designed to control all that, if there isn't already... [Actually, what came to the top of my mind is using one of the battery charger chips to control, with a pass transistor. The charging "curve" and essentially disconnecting is "programmable" (via resistors)...very old-timey but nice in that you can pretty much match the device's optimal curve as provided by the manufacturer, if it matters.]
[Ah, the ol' Fluke 77, mine is 30 years old this summer, bought it when I quit a job that provided one, and couldn't live without it...]
Here's a little video clip I did just for grins. Note the "Charging" LED on the ultracap bank
One of the intended applications for this device is to allow 100-watt output HAM radio transmitters that draw upwards of 20-Amps at 12vdc to operate from a 10-Amp rated vehicle accessory jack (cigarette lighter receptacle) during SSB (voice) or CW (Morse code) transmissions which are typically less than 50% duty cycle. Even though peak current draw from the ultracap bank can be in the 20-Amp range, those peaks are augmented by the charged Ultracaps which are kept charged through the 10-Amp rated 12v accessory jack. Another similar application is to 'stiffen' the output from a 12v car battery while operating the 100-watt transmitter off grid..... or powering my Mac Mini from a 12v LiFePO4 battery. And of course it can easily be re-purposed for other audio related applications. P.S. I sent you more info via the email you use in your AudioAsylum profile.
Edits: 05/16/16
Thanks for the info. Yes, as a ham I'm familiar with MFJ, I doubt there are many (or even SWLs) who don't have a gadget or two of theirs around.
I am just looking at the ultracaps (supercaps at digi-key) and a couple of things I notice first: larger ones are not cheap (!), especially when you get over the ~5V rating, and judging by their lifetime ratings, you'd want to charge them with a fairly stringent protocol to keep them "cool".
[digi-key doesn't have anything suitable or that interests me, as far as I can see, it was just my starting point, from familiarity...]
You can also find them on Ebay. Not a bad idea for providing clean power. Basically the same as what John Kenny was doing with his battery mod. Funny how that got trashed by some, and probably where this idea came from.
I missed the (obvious) part about the caps being in series...d'oh! That's why I couldn't find anything "interesting" at dk, I was looking for 5V+ rating...not much there, but they do sell the Maxwell ones Abe pictured [too bad they don't come up when I searched for "ultracap" on the dk site, yet do when I use google to search].
Just for clarification in case somebody else is interested, dk being popular enough, eBay is often not "friendly" $-wise for shipping to Canada, and dk is. I sometimes order from dk before I go to bed and the stuff is here before I get up! [And I go to bed late, and get up while the sun is still well on its upward arc...]
Not at all the same as what John Kenny was doing with his battery mod, as ultracaps were created to mitigate many of the problems associated with batteries. The only thing remotely similar is that both are energy storage devices.
Edits: 05/17/16
The concept is the same. Pretty simple.
Sure if you say so, a power supply is a power supply.
I do not intend to back and forth with you and waste my time. The battery functions like a large capacitor and swamps the effect of the feeder supply. smh
If it were THAT simple (as simple minds would comprehend), why would some designers be pursuing ultracaps instead of batteries? Smh. LoL
Please stop already....
Hi Kal:
Thanks for that correction.
I read the diagram without my glasses :)
I will correct my OP.
Post a Followup:
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: