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In Reply to: RE: " Built in Galvanic isolation " posted by beppe61 on April 27, 2016 at 04:13:38
Of these low speed converters. They cannot be used on a LAN and could potentially damage sensitive network equpment, and they also may or may not have the speed to support the USB 2 480mps throughput... The reason why the ones I linked to are $500+ retail is because they are LAN gigabit supported and can operate off of switches, and are very fast.
Cheers,
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Follow Ups:
Hi and thanks a lot for the very helpful advice.
The idea was to use them only between pc and dac but they are worse that a common isolator.
I wait to read about the other extenders for lan use. Those are the interesting one. Clearly more expensive also.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg
Ethernet USB Extenders don't necessarily offer USB Isolation properties. Good ones will. Similarly an inexpensive Ethernet USB Extender is unlikely to provide protocol translation but is probably just doing signal level conditioning. Not that protocol translation is necessary in order to achieve the benefits of isolation and signal conditioning... think Regen, Intona, etc.
USB 2 "speed" is not the issue here so you can still experiment with your entry level Ethernet USB Extender if you're willing to. Cable it up and plug in your DAC. Does it play music? Perhaps not well at hi-res rates but does it play basic 44/16 PCM? No harm in playing around with your Extenders, point to point. But if it works, that does not mean it is providing any isolation benefit.
A couple things you can try in order to determine if there's isolation between the two ends:
1) Attach the extenders to each other via Ethernet cable, but leave each USB end unattached. Now with a multimeter (ohm meter) or even a cheapie continuity tester determine if there is continuity or isolation between the two USB connector outer metal housings at each end of the extenders. Your measurement should be DC open circuit, (no connection) between the two USB connector metal housings.
An open circuit would indicate isolation properties between the two metal shield ends. This is a good start if it does in fact measure as open circuit. If there is continuity measured between the two ends, there is no isolation.
You can determine if there's isolation for each data line between each USB end by measuring from PIN 2 to PIN 2 in the same way. And between PIN 3 to PIN 3 in the same way. Measure for continuity from end to end. If it measures open circuit that's a good thing. If not, there is no isolation.
If any of the items above do not measure "open circuit", your Extenders do not offer isolation properties.
2) The other challenge is to determine if VBUS power will be passed via the Ethernet cable, or if they left it open. If these Ethernet USB Extenders are meant to be used only with USB devices that require separate (wall wart) power, they may have left VBUS disconnected.
Again, you can measure PIN 1 to PIN 1 between each USB end. And measure PIN 4 to PIN 4 between each end.
Or, attach a USB device that requires VBUS and see if it works. Attach a USB Keyboard, Mouse, small disk drive, etc. If it works, then they did in fact pass VBUSS over a couple extra Ethernet wires. You can fmak hack off the +5V line at the USB device end (or cover PIN 1 & 4) if your DAC does not require +5Vcc over USB. If it requires +5Vcc you can still hack the +5Vcc line and inject your own clean +5VDC.
Sounds like a hassle to me but if you want to experiment, the steps above should give you some insight into what your Ethernet USB Extender setup is doing.... or not doing.
Hi ! thanks a lot for the very complete and helpful directions.
Clearly i was thinking wrongly.
I thought it were a signal only cable. How sad."attach a USB device that requires VBUS and see if it works"
yes i have a dac that needs power from usb to work.
What impresses me is that much longer connections are possible with Ethernet cables than with usb.
This suggests me of an intrinsically superior design.
How can i understand if an extender provides isolation before buying it ? are they very expensive ?
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 04/27/16 04/27/16
How can i understand if an extender provides isolation before buying it ? are they very expensive ?
You can't really, unless the manufacturer provides detailed features and specs for isolation. Some that target audiophiles won't even do that. And keep in mind, "Extender" does not imply "Isolation".
Unless you need to move your USB DAC a great distance from the source, an "Extender" is not necessary.
Thanks a lot again.
I tend to like rj45 link better than usb. Also the connector looks better and with the locking mechanism.
Anyway i will try out.
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 04/27/16
Yes..
It cost one next to nothing to buy some $35 ones, - put the PC/MAC in the bedroom, - run a CAT6 cable to the "receiver" & on to the DAC. Compare...
Of course either the cheap, or the expensive ones aren't going to be for anyone who uses an NAA.
For someone who is the in market for a Regen or Intona and/or Jitterbug, or is and wants to stick with AudioNirvana, Jriver, or Pure Music, - a device like this will be a reprieve for those programs that can only be used directly from a PC/Mac.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Hi and thanks again very much indeed.
I am trying to learn something but it is a complex topic.
But i have a doubt, The Ethernet cable carries only signals ore also power like a usb cable ?
because in this case i could need a receiver with a dc socket to provide power to the usb dac.
It is not clear to me.
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 04/27/16
Hi Beppe,Think of it this way. There is a sender and a receiver. The (USB powered) sender takes the USB signal and converts it from powered USB to the unpowered OSI model TCP/IP packet delivery protocol. Then there is an (ac-Powered, 5v DC output) Receiver on the other end that converts the TCP/IP protocol to an isolated, cleaner, "new" USB signal.
After that, one can add their USB to SPDIF converter, - or plug directly into their USB DAC.
The advantage to this, besides getting a "new," purer, isolated, USB signal, - is that it can be plugged into any RJ45 port on your network: so you can move your DAC/stereo easily all around the home, or keep your computer in your basement, - or in your attic, - (where it belongs).
Those other devices, are more like USB extenders, that change/convert the cabling to the better separated individual strands of RJ45 cable, but still keep the USB signal intact with power, to extend it. These do not have the bandwidth of the former.
I would speculate that some of these "powered" non-lan, non-gigabit, cheaper adapters would cause much harm to LAN switches that use unpowered TCP/IP...
NOTICE the warning on this Extron Extender pic above: it is not one of the more expensive devices that PS-Audio and I are talking about.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 04/27/16
Hi !before your advice i have already bought this one here.
Sadly i see now that the Sender (the unit close to the pc) uses indeed the usb power, while the Receiver has its own power supply.
However i will try it anyway and listen.
As i said my target is a usb dac that i do not move around. So portability is not an issue.
Next step will be a Sender that provide isolation from usb power for sure, like the one you mention.
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 04/28/16 04/28/16
Hi,
Yeah, all "senders" are USB powered as I understand it. The "receiver" needs to be powered with an AC/DC converter. The thing that you bought might work on your audio rack, or from Direct CAT 5/6 etc.
Just don't connect this to your LAN... As it does not do TCP/IP...
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Hi again !" Hi, Yeah, all "senders" are USB powered as I understand it "
i have found a pair where they are both externally powered. I wonder if this is the only way to get complete isolation from the pc." The "receiver" needs to be powered with an AC/DC converter.
The thing that you bought might work on your audio rack, or from Direct CAT 5/6 etc.
Just don't connect this to your LAN... As it does not do TCP/IP... "i did not do that for sure.
I do not want to destroy anything if possible.
And thanks again for the helpful advice.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 04/28/16 04/28/16
If it doesn't say "LAN, gigabit" anywhere on the device, - chances are that it's not an ASIC device that converts the signal to TCP/IP, and then converts that back to USB.
Any device cheaper than $500 is likely NOT going to do the above, and likely not going to give you complete isolation. In order to provide that kind of isolation, the device must strip away the USB power, convert the USB signal to a different protocol, - then convert it back, (thereby generating a "new" USB signal).
Cheers,
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Hi and thanks again. Message received.
Only the more complex and then expensive devices give what needed.
I will stick with usb then and some sort of isolation.
No more cheap boxes.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg
Cheers....
I don't know how much PSAudio will "re-engineeer" the boxes by StarTech, but I suspect that the "LanRover" will not be cheaper....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Very likely but if it is really that good ...
What is amazing is that today is possible to find good 2nd laptop for 150 USD ... with the addition of a nice little SSD and SW the source is almost ready. And also extremely flexible and reliable.
However the Usb connection can be a problem.
When i read about the importance of the cable, the impact of the length, the need of isolation and reclocking ... i really start to doubt that it is the right standard for the purpose.
But i am not an expert.
Kind regards.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 04/28/16 04/28/16
I totally agree with you.....
My Universal Player only has a SPDIF/COAX input and I love its sound and can't afford to get rid of it. I also can't afford a Signature Rendu, - so I'm going to convert USB to SPDIF with this....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I know it. Are you using it ?
sorry if i missed it but how it is connected to your pc ?
any isolator/usb power supply/regenerator in between ?
Kind regards,
bg
Hiya....
It arrived today, - got a metal "project box." I'll drill two holes in either side for the female USB input and the other side for the COAX.
It'll just sandwich in between the microRendu and my Universal player.
Cheers,
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Hi !
i do not want to stress you but what is the "Universal Player" ?
I have found instead info about this ...
http://www.microrendu.sonore.us/
very interesting device.
Still i would like to read something about that Universal Player.
Thanks a lot indeed.
Kind regards,
bg
Hi,
My system is a tubed APL Universal player that plays DVD-A, DVD-V, SACD, redbook CDs, etc. It has a built-in "H-attenuator" so it's a limited pre-amp as it has a SPDIF coax digital input on the back.
Other universal players are the Sony, Oppo, Yamaha, all made players that do DVD, SACD, CD etc.... S
So, - I need an external USB to SPDIF converter that will be the F-1 XMOS XU208 "bridge." The microRendu will replace the Mac Mini and and will run LMS, Roon, MiniMserver....
I was using a HiFace USB to SPDIF converter previously.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Hi and thanks a lot again for the kind reply
Nice thing to have a digital input on the player.
There are some integrated sources that have excellent DA stage.
But usually only digital outs are provided.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg
Hi and thanks a lot again for the very kind and valuable advice." Hi Beppe, Think of it this way. There is a sender and a receiver. The (USB powered) sender takes the USB signal and converts it from powered USB to the unpowered OSI model TCP/IP packet delivery protocol. "
This is a key point. I would like a Sender that takes only the "signal portion" off the usb port and not the power, and using instead power from an external ps for its functioning.
Moreover, if i understand well Tx is the sender and Rx the receiver ?" Then there is an (ac-Powered, 5v DC output) Receiver on the other end that converts the TCP/IP protocol to an isolated, cleaner, "new" USB signal. "
If i understand correctly the Sender converts the usb signal to TCP/IP and the Receiver convert again the TCP/IP to usb ? i have to try and listen. The fact that Ethernet connections are recommended for longer distances i guess should mean something, like a more robust signal ?
" After that, one can add their USB to SPDIF converter, - or plug directly into their USB DAC.
The advantage to this, besides getting a "new," purer, isolated, USB signal, - is that it can be plugged into any RJ45 port on your network: so you can move your DAC/stereo easily all around the home, or keep your computer in your basement, - or in your attic, - (where it belongs). "i am much more interested to the 1st point, the quality of the signal.
But i am sure that we will see some development on this topic.
I trust Ps Audio boss completely. If he says that it sounds great it must sound really great. I understand he is talking of another kind of device but i am willing to try something cheaper in the meantime." Those other devices, are more like USB extenders, that change/convert the cabling to the better separated individual strands of RJ45 cable, but still keep the USB signal intact with power, to extend it. These do not have the bandwidth of the former.
I would speculate that some of these "powered" non-lan, non-gigabit, cheaper adapters would cause much harm to LAN switches that use unpowered TCP/IP...
NOTICE the warning on this Extron Extender pic above: it is not one of the more expensive devices that PS-Audio and I are talking about "i will look for this Extron model. I have one of the cheap ones and they work but i did not listen carefully. As you say they could do more harm than good to the signal.
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 04/28/16
I posted this pic, only to illustrate that this is a BAD device and does not do one may want, and why these "cheaper" devices are not good.
"Don't connect to your LAN"
It is not certain that the "sender" converts the USB signal to TCP/IP and then creates a "new" USB signal at the receiver when the TCP/IP protocol is converted back to USB.
So, if your concern is the SIGNAL, this box may not help you at all.....
This device is expensive, and the ASIC process drives up the cost. Abe is right in that it's more expensive than a Regen plus Intona. But, it MAY alleviate the purchase of an expensive USB cable to the DAC, and/or you get the incredible benefit of moving a noisy computer far away from your audio rack: or alleviating the need for an NAA and/or allow you to continue using a program like AudioNirfana/Pure Music
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
The Ethernet cable carries only signals or also power like a usb cable ?
because in this case i could need a receiver with a dc socket to provide power to the usb dac.
See my comments above on how to determine this for your Ethernet USB Extender.
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