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Hi.
Just wanted to share this.
I read a lengthy thread over at CA about the Intona USB isolator device.
The Intona device has been mentioned also several times over here at AA
at the beginning of the year.
I'm kind of surprised that the device really never caused a "hype" over here.
After reading most of that thread at CA it seems to me that you
can easily forget pretty much all other USB cleaning gadgets around.
The device does things differently.
It doesn't really filter noise. It isolates it. It's one of the very few devices which manages to handle USB 2.0 480Mbit/s isolation.
It doesn't use simple HUB chips for reclocking/regenerating, it uses FPGAs.
Groundloops that still exist with most other known filters are eliminated.
It's not and "Audio(phile)" industry design.
It's a high speed data industrial design. Don't expect too much marketing here! The lack of audio marketing might make the device even more interesting.
People over at CA reported:
Even LiFePo and Neutron Star Clock pimped Regens wouldn't be able to compete. (That's something for you to know FMAK, even though u "just" run LiFePos afaik ;) )
Internally galvanic isolated DACs - usually isolated on I2S - would also benefit. But that we knew before. I mean - knew that I2S isolation is not the full story.
From what I read the industrial version is the device of choice.
It seems there's one downside. The output current is limited to 300mA @ 5V. People might have issues with bus-powered DACs.
It also seems that different USB cables on the upstream side doesn't show much - if any - differences. However.
Between DAC and Intona, there are differences with cables.
Obviously these cables slightly mess around with the result as delivered by the isolator again. The Intona as external device can't do much about it.
Bottom line. There's a lot of stuff that would make me buy this device.
The problem. I'm currently not using USB anymore.
But. Take some time, read below to get the in-depth info:
CA Reference
This example shows again that USB DAC designers still have a long way to go to get the USB interface under control.
It seems to me though that there is light at the end of the USB tunnel.
Enjoy.
Follow Ups:
for audio.
I discovered this while writing to SD cards for use with the SDTrans player.
I initially used a USB writer. It was powered by the jkeny battery scheme. I then inserted a battery modded REGEN into the chain.
Though I was getting much better sound than I ever heard with the computer setup I was still hearing vestiges of the "computer sound" which I now realize is USB sound. Lack of substance and resolution in the lower midrange on down.
I was then told to try a SATA based writer and the difference in my case was substantial. I heard a tonal balance more akin to my LP setup and is actually very easy to enjoy.
In fact, for those interested in REDBOOK only as I am the SDTrans is so much better than the computer; there is no comparison. The SDTrnas can be used for higher sampling rates but I have found high sampling rate just gives you more noise. I have not listened to any "high rez" stuff on the SDTrans.
My computer setup was tweaky with battery power for MB and drives, JCAT USB cable and PCIe card along with plenty of other tricks employed. I was using WTF as my player. Not a laptop.
Will never return unless something ground shaking occurs.
Maybe it is time to return to sound cards for computer users. USB is a wonderful convenience for anything other than audio.
The Intona has been ordered.
If you want the best try the Mutec 3+ usb. Albeit at a higher price than the Intona. I actually have the Intona > Recovery > Mutec +3 usb. All together costs about $1500 but boy do they create some beautiful sound. Way better than just using a AES/XLR digital cable.
What DAC are you using?
I bought an Intona very early on and posted about it. It is the single device in the USB chain that gives the biggest improvement for me. I go from my Macbook Pro via usb cable to a Regen that feeds tee Itona that feeds a Melodius USB converter. Also my Master 7 dac creates its own 5 volts. I highly recommend the Itona
Alan
Edits: 04/08/16
You have to take a lot of steps to turn a multi-function computer into a NAA.
Or, - you can just start with a NAA in the first place. Or, at least, something that's closer to one....
I just LOVE all of these boxes, letting people know that their computer is best used as a Roon/LMS/HQPlayer etc server, - in the basement.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Not everyone wants to be "boxed in" to a dedicated appliance and be at the mercy of the manufacturer when general purpose computers offer so much more flexibility and choices. We've discussed this ad nauseam so no need to start down that rat hole again. To each his own.
"Do you have to criticize EVERYTHING that you yourself didn't think of or purchase?"
I find your post above hysterical in light of your attitude to products mentioned by Sordidman. I will go out on a limb and bet you have heard none of them.
It has been demonstrated with out a shadow of a doubt a mac is a highly compromised music source, and as Sordiman says, they make excellent NAS devices.
he can't hear any difference and he sells them as fast as he buys. I have to ask why ne bothers.
There has to be a motive that he constantly denies having.
There was no criticism in my post on a specific product like that from fmak, or yours for that matter.... so what you find hysterical is likely due to a flaw in your thinking.And yes, I've tried a couple NAA based solutions.
Edits: 04/08/16
"And yes, I've tried a couple NAA based solutions."
You run HQPlayer?
The NAA, gives one the most flexibility, always at far less cost.
No one is being "boxed in"
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
He is 'boxing' himself in
...pulled the trigger on buying one today via PayPal. At least the designer seems to have credibility in high speed circuit design w/o blending it with 'audiophile hype'.My Regen didn't do much for me. Lets see what the Itona has to offer.
I've read about the Itona device and posted about in January but my comments were limited to it's clean +5V.
Edits: 04/08/16
Pretty typical for around here. Making big proclamations about something you have never heard.
Pretty typical for around here.
As are loutish interjections.
"loutish interjections"...of which the OP is a master of based on the posting history.
No, he is right.The 'recommendation' was so absolute that he needed to have tried it first, as you did.
I won't spend e350 on the basis of hearsay, nor would many others.
Edits: 04/08/16
Given that soundchekk has deplored the USB interface at monthly intervals on this list for the last 103 years (though he didn't coin the term "Sometimes Universal Serial Bus), I think it perfectly reasonable for him to link to a thread that shows how its problems might be addressed.
He started with I read a lengthy thread over at CA about the Intona USB isolator device , gave a fair summary of the thread's contents and finished with Read below to get the in-depth info c/w link. Just for once, he didn't accuse anyone of improper relationships with manufacturers or suggest that Steve had dodgy chums in Panamanian legal circles. OK, he banged on about his own free-with-the-cornflakes approach but we're used to that. (Terrible thought - he might be right.)
More interesting, it had crossed my mind to put caps across USB +/- lines but hadn't got round to trying them and certainly hadn't thought of using OS-CONs. Thanks for the idea - I'll give it a go. Questions: Why do the capacitors need pre-charging? Is it a one-off thing or would it have to be repeated after a more-or-less lengthy period unpowered?
D
current draw may well exceed usb current limit and yes you must precharge if you switch pc off and the cap discharges.
"it seems to me that you can easily forget pretty much all other USB cleaning gadgets around."I've been using the cheaper of the two Intona units since January. You're right - the difference it makes to my USB-connected DAC is very marked even though the DAC is driven by a embedded mobo with all the fittings, not your typical desktop noise generator. However, though I heartily recommend the Intona, I don't think it necessarily replaces each and every other USBizmo out there.
I started by powering the unit via the USB as the designer recommends, i.e. without my AQJitterbug thingie in circuit. Then, after getting used to the sound - which was excellent - I put the Jitterbug back. It made for a small but worthwhile and repeatable loss of "glare" so I left it there.
I then tried powering the Intona with an after-market power supply, in this case the mid-market AQVOX (see link) because (a) I had one to hand and (b) it comes with a handy adapter. I couldn't hear any difference with it in circuit, suggesting that the Intona's designer has done a good job PS-wise. However, when I powered the AQVOX via a Jon Risch-style DIY mains isolator and an MSA-style DIY mains lead (both also handily to hand), there was a pronounced improvement. Which was fine except that the AQVOX and its mains-power add-ons cost almost as much as the Intona.
Spec for the two Intona devices seems to be, bar isolation voltages, identical. The designer doesn't claim audio-related differences and reports I've read on CA suggesting there are did not involve anything as esoteric as actually listening to both devices. (That said, were someone to pinch mine, I'd probably replace it with the fancy version for what might reasonably be called reasons of superstition.)
I also got a small improvement from covering the underside of the PCB and the inside of the box with Anti-Vibration Magic (though it won't improve my warranty). What I haven't tried is the Intona with the AQVOX PSU but without the Jitterbug for the technically sophisticated reason that I can't be bothered. OTOH, I hope to report in a few days on the effect of using a W4S RUR reclocker after the Intona (long story).
In short, the Intona is excellent but not IMHO a panacea.
"If you believe 80% of what is posted in CA, then you are......"
I think's it's the twenty per cent he's talking about here . . .
Edits: 04/08/16
As you say, the device 'improves' SQ in your system and no doubt in others, but you recognise that it is not the be all that is suggested by soundchekk.
I may spend the e367 if there is sufficient evidence that it is a must on top of what I already have and can do but at the moment I am holding the starter gun.
There is a usb eye pattern posted by Silab and another by Itona. They look OK but is not one that I would look for in a high end audio system.
Thx for the feedback. Interesting writeup.
You obviously also read that the industrial version is supposed to be quite a step up to yours. -- Whatever that means!?!?
Anyhow. Nothing is perfect. And won't ever be. There's always space for improvement.
Still. As standalone device - from my understanding - this is the current device of choice.
I do also think from a technical perspective that the solution is more advanced then the rest of the bunch.
I do expect that we'll see more stuff popping up in the audio arena next winter. The Intona folks are delivering quite some ideas for the establishment.
Enjoy.
This was shown to me by a dealer of high end products who had tried various usb enhancements and then devised his own.
Needed: A usb plug for the computer and a 100uF to 600 uF solid polymer capacitor.
Solder onto V+ and Gr. Charge up the capacitor with a 5V usb mains charger and insert into a usb receptacle of choice onto your computer, then play music. There is a difference for the better!
I have not tried this myself routinely but have heard it.
Caution. The usb plug with capacitor must be precharged first. You can add a 10 nF to 100nF NPO ceramic for good effect.
"Caution. The usb plug with capacitor must be precharged first. You can add a 10 nF to 100nF NPO ceramic for good effect."
What happens if you fail to do this? (Or if you had done so, but then there was a power failure and the power came back up without disconnecting and recharging.)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
What happens if you fail to do this?
If the USB port doesn't have current limiting circuitry (a quick search suggests that many don't), you risk zapping the port, the mobo, every apartment in the block, etc. From scratch, OS-CONs draw large currents.
D
Sounds like a good test to pull off while the mobo is still under warranty. Blow the motherboard if it is improperly designed...
There is no excuse for selling a power supply (or an amplifier) that is damaged when driving any kind of load from open to shorted.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
This is the story of computer part design for cheapness! You pay $100 for a complex board with many many components. What do you expect?
Section 7.2.1 of the USB specification requires that powered ports provide protection against overloads. Protective devices cost less than 0.2 €.
There is a lot of cheap junk out there, to be sure... Hence my suggestion to do the testing while the product is under warranty.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
reality is another.
We still have usb fobs (nominally very good ones) that behave differently when inserted, with different speeds on different computers, and usb bridges that don't work on some computers.
Hence the sometimes universal serial bus still rules. This happens even on Intel boards and should NOT be the case.
We still have usb fobs (nominally very good ones) . . . This happens even on Intel boards and should NOT be the case.
OTOH, Intel are nominally very good boards. It seems fair to ask if the fault lies with the fobs or with the boards.
D
I wasn't talking about whether the data worked or not, or even if a power cycle was needed before things worked again. I was talking just about damaging the USB port. I would be surprised if an Intel board were damaged when connected to a short. I feel the same about audio power amplifiers. These can oscillate into certain loads, in addition to current limiting problems. In either case, I don't want to have anything to do with them, no matter how good they may sound under other circumstances.
I had a 1960's vintage aircraft transceiver and it blew the RF output transistor when running with the antenna disconnected. (Actually, the problem was a bad contact, not installation error.) This unit had been made in southern California. A few years later the company went out of business after the manufacturing plant burned to the ground. Later, I bought a nice German transceiver that worked reliably for over 20 years. It turns out that the German aircraft certification requires running test units continuously for 30 minutes into open loads and into shorted loads. It then must immediately pass its certification tests.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I was talking just about damaging the USB port. I would be surprised if an Intel board were damaged when connected to a short.
Maybe I misundersatood fmak's point but late last night I recalled how, not too long ago, I plugged a known-good (and still good) USB DAC into a small Intel mobo while doing a friend a favour. The board promptly died on me. On reflection, plans to try that pre-charged 500uF OS-CON USB filter thingie are currently on hold . . .
Don't know, I was warned about crashing the computer and possibly damaging the usb port.
Those OSCOns of high value can suck in quite an inrush current but I haven't investigated this.
fmak : It seems overpriced, with a wall wart and not the best regulator spec.
Nope it doesn't come with a wall-wart. It's powered from the downstream USB port.
If you believe 80% of what is posted in CA, then you are......I have no doubt that the Itona works but how well it works will depend on someone forking out e350 or so to find out.
If you haven't heard it with your Rapsberry or other el cheapo dac, don't tout it by quoting second or third hand. Inmates here read CA as well.
Edits: 04/08/16
"If you haven't heard it with your Rapsberry or other el cheapo dac, don't tout it by quoting second or third hand. Inmates here read CA as well".
fmak: Do you have a monopoly say on what should be posted here? When you become a forum moderator please let us know.
Man. Your attitude really sucks.
I know people who have the device and confirm that it works extremely well.
I usually try to avoid "touting" anything out 2nd or 3rd hand.
You better stop trying to kill a discussion, because you were not the first one coming up with it or because you havn't bought it yourself yet!!
I know you wouldn't believe that there are better solutions out there than yours. Actually we all know that.
I also think CA is a much more active forum than this one.
The Intona thread - if you've read it at all!?!? -- also shows valuable information and measurements contributed by the designer and other HW designers. This I don't consider nonsense.
Some simple features of that device already suggest that it does things ways better then others in certain areas.
And I also have the feeling that the designers behind that device understand more of digital high speed data design than the often quoted former analog audio gurus who made it into the digital world not long ago.
I let USB go because I'm still disappointed by USB DAC performances - the USB handling in particular.
And yep. My PI and the tweaked I2S DAC performs better than any USB DAC (incl. my tweaked RME UCX) incl. USB gadgets and USB tweaks ever did.
Enjoy.
Fred,
Wyrd 4 Sound will be sending me their Recovery USB device. Should be interesting.
And I for one can't wait to see how the W4S Recovery compares to the iFi iUSB 3.0 Micro or Nano versions, as it seems most on CA are starting to replace their Regen's with it, so let's see where this goes?.
Edits: 04/08/16
Isn't the recovery similer to the Regen?
Alan
Isn't the Recovery similer to the Regen?
The Recovery reclocks the USB signal and provides cleaner downstream power than a USB port typically provides. It is transparent to the OS and requires no drivers.
The Regen (and the Schiit Wyred) also reclock the USB signal and provide clean power but they're one-port USB hubs and thus not transparent to the OS. Though the necessary drivers are part of every OS, the devices have still to be enumerated on power up.
A possible benefit of all three devices I've not seen mentioned is that they should also provide clean power to the likes of USB-powered ADCs.
I didn't like the sound of the Wyred powering DACs (I tried a couple) but plan to see how it fares in "upstream mode". Here, though the reclocking facility is redundant, the clean power might be useful given that I've pinched the AQVOX I used to use when digitising LPs. (See above . . .)
Finally, see link for a slightly dated but clear explanation of current limiting and USB design. As ever, not as simple as one might think.
"The Recovery reclocks the USB signal and provides cleaner downstream power than a USB port typically provides. It is transparent to the OS and requires no drivers."
The Regen (and the Schiit Wyred) also reclock the USB signal and provide clean power but they're one-port USB hubs and thus not transparent to the OS. Though the necessary drivers are part of every OS, the devices have still to be enumerated on power up."
That is half right and half wrong. The UpTone Audio USB REGEN, the Schitt Audio Wyrd, and the Wyred 4 Sound Recovery all use the exact same Microchip USB2412 hub chip (http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/en/USB2412). None of them require drivers for use, though some OSs and DAC drivers are better about initially "seeing" the path through the hub to the DAC than others.
The Recovery differs from the REGEN in its use of a switching regulator for its 5VBUS (not good), common mode chokes on the data line ala Jitterbug (not my cup of tea but some like that sound), noisier TI TPS7A4901 regs (15.4uVrms/72dB PSSR versus the 4.17uVrms/82dB PSSR TPS7A4700 which the REGEN uses two of)--and the Recovery's use of the Crystek CCHD-575 (excellent).
Alex C.
UpTone Audio LLC
http://uptoneaudio.com
the Recovery is similar to the iPurifier 2, except that the latter is more convenient to use and is cheaper (at least in EU).
The dc to dc chip in the iPurifier 2 does seem to affect SQ.
Hudra Z, which is an usb galvanic isolator, a usb regenerator, and outputs audio formats via 2 low jitter XOs.
The isolator is a TI rather than the Si chip in the Itona. The usb regenerator is a field programmed chip, and the usb to I2S ouput is via the so called Fempto XOs. The claim is that the arrangement avoids the added jitter caused by the use of Si barriers in the isolation chip(s).
The sound still changes if you place a Regen or iPurifier 2 before or after it!
Many factors affecting SQ are involved and there is no 'done right' or 'done wrong' piece of hardware or software as proclaimed by some who just assimilate CA or AA posts without qualification..
The claim is that the arrangement avoids the added jitter caused by the use of Si barriers in the isolation chip(s).
Reports and reviews elsewhere suggest that the Audiobyte Hydra is excellent but, at over £1,000 c/w PSU, I'd be getting the jitters so bad myself I'd probably not notice how it was doing.
Whatever, my understanding is that the Intona reclocks after the isolating circuit. Would that not, at least in part, address any jitter induced by that circuit?
I don't believe the Itona reclocks
Alan
It does reclock Alan.
Spread spectrum is just a way of redistributing say 8 kHz noise over a wider bandwidth. Generally ain't good thing.
I stand corrected
Thanks
Alan
It does reclock Alan.
I'm not sure Alan needs reclocking.
Whatever, thanks for the link which I remember reading but couldn't find yesterday as my Internet was down.
Superdad is right and I was definitely wrong in suggesting that the Wyred4Sound RUR was not a one-port hub same as the Schiit and UpTone products.
The difference is that Uptone Audio and Schiit are upfront and clear as to what their product is and does whereas I at least found Wyred4Sound's description rather less straightforward. Disingenuous is too strong a word but IMHO unhelpful isn't.
Nor was it clear even on that slightly odd dedicated but "curated" thread on CA - where's soundchekk when we need him?
OK, OK, I should have checked before buying but I don't think it should be necessary for something so basic. Grrrrrrr.
The bus powered feature isn't a good thing anyway but the price is just not right for a usb port device when compared to other incarnations.
By now you have totted up enough cash to get something like a Hydra Z which isolates, relocks and has cleaned up bus power.
The bus powered feature isn't a good thing anyway but the price is just not right for a usb port device when compared to other incarnations.
I'm not sure which device you're referring to and don't follow your argument. The "one-port hub" USBizmos are not bus powered; the Intona is but, at least in my setup, works very well in spite. As noted above, I had to go to a deal of trouble to improve on the default and then not by much.
. . . you have totted up enough cash to get something like a Hydra Z which isolates, relocks and has cleaned up bus power.
Not sure that's true. I've still got a way to go cost-wise but have an Intona - which isolates, relocks and has cleaned up bus power - on my main system, a Regen on my second system and an RUR I bought in error.
I don't know if the HydraZ performs better than the Intona. Does anyone? It certainly comes in a nicer box but, at three times the price, so it should.
D
The Itona uses 5 1117 regulators which are not great.
What does it relock? Look at the eye patterns for the Si and Ti parts on the web, compare it to the one that Itona posts, and you will see that there isn't that much difference.
What the Hydra Z does is to finally relock the audio streams before output. it's expensive but in the absence of anything else, is worth the money, especuially if you can find a used one.
It seems overpriced, with a wall wart and not the best regulator spec.
It seems overpriced, with a wall wart and not the best regulator spec.
Let the actual buyers of the product determine what is best or overpriced. Sheesh. Do you have to criticize EVERYTHING that you yourself didn't think of or purchase?
-ve -ve -ve.
Do you not have better things to do?
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