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I was asked for details of an easy & reversible modification to the Regen that greatly improves its sound quality.This is not another PS to plug into the DC input of the Regen - it's a bypass of the 3.3V on-board regulator with a 3.3V LiFePo4 battery supply. I know the regulators are said to be state of the art but a LiFePO4 battery smashes this out of the park.
Obviously you need to open up the Regen to connect a battery to the output from the 3.3V regulator & ground, thus bypassing the regulator. There is a ceramic capacitor C3 right at the output of that regulator - the reg at the top of the pic - REG33.
There's a copper via with a 5 beside it at top of that C3 capacitor - this is the GROUND point for connection of the negative battery pole. The other side of the capacitor is the connection to 3.3V positive (the one with two vias side-by-side). You need to attach the battery + pole to this point - soldering to one of these vias is best. It's very easy to reverse this if desired.
This powers the USB hub chip & the clock which is all that's needed for audio devices that don't need USB Vbus 5V power for signalling or for powering the audio device. If your need 5V supply you can still do this tweak but you need to supply the 5V separately
BTW, I forgot to include this: this provides a far superior sound than using 2 of the same batteries to power the Regen through its DC input so it's not just the batteries that make the difference but bypassing the REG33 also.
This signifies, to me, that the regulator is a limiting factor. The likely reason for this improvement might be that the clock is getting a cleaner PS particularly at low frequencies where Fmak reported issues with these regs? It is a disputed but widely held belief that reduced close in phase noise is one of the most critical factors for sound quality - LF noise on the clocks PS is one source of this close-in phase noise, the other being inside the oscillator itself (the crystal cut & it's surrounding circuitry).
I don't exactly know how a better PS on the Regen's clock & USB hub chip translates into a better sound downstream at the audio device - I don't believe any measurements have yet revealed this?
Try it & post your reports
Edit: I am reminded by some of the posts on this thread to warn people that they do this at their own risk & that they should be somewhat competent in DIY to do this. These batteries can put out a lot of power - treat them with respect - as you would a car battery - they are that powerful
Edits: 11/22/15 11/22/15 11/23/15 11/23/15 11/24/15 11/27/15 04/30/16Follow Ups:
Ok, this is my last post - I'll leave this subject now as Chris has indicated on other threads (now closed) that he believes I am breaking some forum rulesHe mentioned I started two threads on the same topic & I'm not intending to argue with him here just to explain why this thread was started in response to some members (I think it was Theob & Rickmcinnis) asking me for details of the tweak which at least one of them had seen mentioned on another forum.
The "listening impressions" thread was started because this thread had become very "noisy" & I had hoped people might try the tweak & report their "impressions"
Anyway, as I said, I'm not arguing with Chris or his decisions, just trying to explain my position.
BTW, I have been a staunch supporter of the Regen on Whatsbestforum & PinkFishMedia forum & Alex & I have communicated via email thanking me for my posts on those forums. He did see report on the sound of the Regen battery tweak mentioned in a TirnaHiFi forum thread reporting on a audio get-together we had & he communicated to me (back at the beginning of Nov) that it was cool.
Thanks for listening!
Edits: 12/02/15
I think it's dangerous to talk about emailing people in such a cavalier fashion. People should be made aware of the dangers of emailing - phishing attacks, identity theft, viruses etc can all be problems which can seriously affect your wealth.
http://mqnplayer.blogspot.co.uk/
Please. Not again. I've thrown out all my LiFePo4 tweaks long tome ago.
The batteries are good for finding out if something is not properly implemented I'd say. If so, you have to fix it properly.
As a permanent solution I never liked them. Too much hazzle.
I keep the fingers crossed that John S. reads all this and revises the
Regen.
That - revising the Regen - he has to do anyhow if he wants to stay in the market. iPurifier2 @99 seems to better the Regen already and all kind of Jitterbug/Regen/PS/cable combinations show also differences/improvements.
Yep. It's very well known that the Regen is not the final word. And the Regen makers are well aware of it.
Can you can Superdad to admit it?
I have to applaud the quality construction of the Regen, which is way above that of some competing products. The Japan sourced box is very well made indeed. However, like competing products, a lot of money is wasted on packaging and in this case, on the poor smps power supply.
I really think the Regen folks did a great job.
Swenson himself mentioned several times - in the early days - that he's well aware that things can be improved further.
They've clearly shown to a wide community how flawed most of the USB DACs still are. And they proved most USB DAC manufacturers wrong.
That's where e.g. SOTM kind of failed. They've build an excellent internal PC USB interface much earlier. Their problems: 1. Desktop PCs as audio servers are a dying art 2. price
The Wyrd device wasn't good enough to push the competition.
The iPurifier 2 at 99Euro seems to be the logical next stage. I just ordered one for testing.
Let see if Rankin/AQ comes up one day with an active device @ $69 challenging the iPurifier2. ;) I guess AQ sold quite some JBs. Enough to realize that large volumes @ rather fair prices can make quite a nice business model.
For sure things are getting better soon.
Beside that I listened to the Schiit Yggdrasil the other day. The Regen
just made a very small, still IMO worthwhile, difference in that system. Obviously some DAC manufacturers are listing what's going on out here.
""They've clearly shown to a wide community how flawed most of the USB DACs still are. And they proved most USB DAC manufacturers wrong.""
No, they are clearly showing how flawed most USB buses are, and/or USB source outputs are.
""The Regen just shapes a digital signal and the noise floor.""
Uptone/Swenson says that it regenerates it.
If you are not disputing that, why not write rengenerate?
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
You listened a bit too much to the vendors around here and elsewhere trying to make people believe that the problem is NOT with their products.
You - as vendor - do that - blaming others - as long as you or your competition don't have a solution. That's basic marketing.
Meanwhile (after > 10 years talking and trying) every single soul around here should have realized that you'll never get the upstream (seen from DAC) environment under control.****
Svensson actually can't use the term "Regenerate", even though it's what every stupid $5 USB-hub does. It's trademarked by iFi. ;)
While doing what every $5 USB-hub does -regenerating,rebalancing,reclocking - the signal gets reshaped. Just the data values stay as they are.
Edits: 12/02/15
""You listened a bit too much to the vendors around here""
Nope, - I listen to music and equipment and make my own judgments.
""Meanwhile (after > 10 years talking and trying) every single soul around here should have realized that you'll never get the upstream (seen from DAC) environment under control.""
Until high-end gear manufacturers start learning about digital file processing, hardware-software, preemptive mult-tasking, charge pumps, role of RAM, USB buses, etc..
Which is what they've begun to do. Your point has been taken, and audio designers have begun to bite the bullet, and we're seeing digital file player/transports designed by the "right" people.
Lastly on this, just because getting these upstream components "under control" are just beginning to be addressed, doesn't mean that they are not a "problem." MY POINT is that the Regen/iPurifier are products that are addressing the PROBLEM, - they are designed to "fix" 1 of the problems in these upstream components, - namely, - the USB bus.
""Svensson actually can't use the term "Regenerate",""
I think that he did already, but I get your point. Capitalism is indeed quite evil....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Yes, agreed, the problem is mainly at the source end although some blame the DACs for not completely eliminating the shit that comes down the communication cables along with the digital signalThe main issue is that computers & digital communications have no need to pay attention to the issues that have been noticed by audiophiles for years & are being addressed by products such as the Regen, iFi & others. For successful digital comms, the only concern is BER (Bit Error Rate) - noise or signal quality is only of concern if it introduces unacceptable rates of bit errors which will affect the comms.
So when this scenario has to play with & cross over into the analogue domain, all these issues raise their heads. Especially so when dealing with digital audio where the voltage or current levels at the LSBs is so low, delicate & easily disturbed.
I believe that a lot of what has been happening in computer audio over the last 10 years or so is the move towards this realisation & conclusion - that digital audio isn't just about the bits - the quality of the signal & what might be riding on it or alongside it is also of importance.
The Regen is just one of the many advances in this area.
Edits: 04/30/16
and does not improve computer systems that are not well assembled and set up for audio that much. It is NOT just the dac as some seem to think here. Using the smps to power the Regen suppress some of the subtle improvements, especially in dynamics and quality of hf.
The Regen just shapes a digital signal and the noise floor.
How this impacts soundquality depends on the associated equipment.
It shouldn't be much of a surprise though if most DACs respond in a similar way. Most of them use pretty similar input stages.
And even with the Regen in place, pretty much all other known tweaks apply again. Just on a level higher then before.
IMO the time for Regen in its current version is over. There are potentially better products at lower price.
I consider it waste of time and money to try to get such a device working properly by applying all kind of modifications that after all cost more than the actual device.
Enjoy.
passive filter???????
I would not trust any product is sold only in China at the behest of its parent company because of defects.
I'm lost.
What the heck are you talking about?? China?? Passive filter??
Oh dear - where did you go wrong with your LiFePO4 tweaks?
I've been using them for > 5 years without any hassle & they have beaten any other power source that I've heard.
But some people seem to break out in a rash when batteries are mentioned.
Just to make clear what "using them" means in your terms:
You've been "selling" LiFePo4 based solutions/modifications!!!
(And all this started at "DIY-Audio" btw.)
For us, who not having a business up'n running, it's quite easy to enter the next stage or to go alternative routes.
As I said, I can easily hook up a LiFePo4 battery to see if something is wrong - if the voltage matches. I've got plenty of them sitting idle in my workshop .
Good luck with your business.
Good luck with your business.
The OP had nothing to do with jkeny's business. The suggestion that it might have is, not for the first time, a snide implication on your part.
The post offered a tip to improve the performance of someone else's product, not one of his, at modest cost. At least one other inmate has done as recommended and reported good results. I intend to try it in due course and am grateful for the OP and follow ups. I don't see why having some experience with batteries is cause for complaint - there was a time when sharing tips was commonplace in this forum. It was the better for it. IIRC, you even made some useful ones of your own.
Those were the days.
I too commend the suggestion to power the usb chip direct and I shall try this out and compare the result with other (electrically safer) means of powering the unit. I do not however, accept the premise that direct powering by battery without further bypassing offers a universally better sound from the Regen.
What is not acceptable has been the poster's attempt to insult others who commented on the suggested setup and the justifications for so doing on the basis of selective abstracts from learned 'papers', and on the author's 5 years experience on powering his own manufactured devices.
There is plenty of evidence that battery power has longevity and operational issues. Connecting a charging unit permanently to avoid running out of juice is simply to connect a relatively poorer power in parallel to supply to the chip. To say that this does not affect SQ is not credible either.
Hey, Fred, apologies for being offensive to you & Soundcheck but you both have engaged in a multitude of snide & unhelpful posts which add nothing to the thread. Neither you nor he seem to be interested in this area & yet you account for the majority of the posts & noise on this thread.
I don't intend to engage further with your negativity as so much of what you say is uninformed & plain incorrect.
Theob posted in the other thread that he hears no audible difference between the battery SOLELY powering the Regen & when the battery is being trickled charged while powering the Regen.
As I said, I have ample experience in the use of these batteries to know what I'm talking about & don't wish to deal with your unfounded & uninformed points.
The proof of who is the bullshitter & who knows what they are talking about will become clear as further posters try using the CORRECT battery with their Regens.
If you are truly open to others' views in an open forum, then you accept them as are, and not indulge in selective quotes and posts that are based on your own and one other inmate's listening (not rationally or technically based) impressions of a multi variable computer audio system.
I would challenge anyone who parallels a charger with a battery to show that this is a universally neutral step to take wrt to sound quality. One may as well use a charger into a super capacitor as is currently implemented in a high end usb audio processor.
Like some other manufacturers, you need to avoid being paranoid if you decide to take part in open discussions here, and not act as though you own a thread.
If you read and had understood what I said, it was simply that the are many ways to alter and tune a system fed by a Regen. I was also the first to point out in CA that it did not have the best power supply chip. I would also try out battery power anytime, provided that it is safe for the electronics and long lasting
Look, I said I wouldn't answer you again but seeing as you are being somewhat reasonable, I will this time.The point is that this isn't a general thread about "how to improve the Regen" - it was specifically set up dealing with one specific improvement & you (& soundcheck) have been dragging it off topic for most of your posts.
I have chosen this specific tweak after having investigated the Regen, because:
- it's easy to do
- it's reversible
- it's cheap
- it's the best sonic improvement for the money & effort
- it has been verified by a number of people as being the best they have heard from the Regen - not just by two people on this forum.You started off sceptical on this thread, as many others did, which is fine - that's always my starting position, as I said. When I answered your points you started to get insulting, for some reason, about my quoting of papers on battery noise (did you ever read that paper?) & joined in with Soundcheck's snide comments on my commercial interests. Both of you have been engaged in just creating noise on this thread with off-topic posts
If you have suggestions for other ways to improve the Regen & better options then, as I suggested before, start another thread - don't pollute this one - this is about a specific tweak
Edits: 11/28/15 11/28/15
Look.
I've nothing against giving hints on modifications.
I know jkeny for a long time though.
It's his business model to modify other companies equipment.
If a hint for some turns into a teaser for others at one point. Hmmh.
If he considers his solution as the best... Hmmh.
I'm wondering if we soon we'll see a jkeny modified Uptone Regen.
Enjoy.
Your snide remarks, withstanding - some people want to try this & see for themselves. I can guarantee that it is a worthwhile mod which will greatly improve their sonics.All the rest of what you say is just bad blood, Hmmmh
Most audio devices can be substantially improved by addressing their power supplies. Uptone Audio recognise this & are developing a PS add-on. Your point is what, exactly?
And, no, I will not be introducing a modified Regen but even if I was - so what - do you have some problem with this?
Edits: 11/27/15
Exactly, I have been using LiFePo4 batteries in my products for years - why are you telling me what I know already? Do you think you are making some sort of "revelation" in your post?. These batteries have not been a hassle for me or my customers.The thing is that some people asked how to do this tweak as they wanted to judge for themselves if it's worthwhile so I started this thread. I guess the know-alls have to pile in - it's their nature - it's just what kow-alls do
It reminds me of Harry Enfield's comedy sketch Mr know-it-all which started "I wouldn't do it like that"
Edits: 11/27/15 11/27/15
Look. This is a public forum.
People need to know your background. And why you promote "your" solution.
You just can't be considered neutral.
That's the problem of being a "Manufacturer".
For sure that's nothing new to you.
"""People need to know your background. And why you promote "your" solution.
You just can't be considered neutral.
That's the problem of being a "Manufacturer".
For sure that's nothing new to you."""
Do you have to work hard to be such a total moron???
How does one so bitter function in this world???
Not everyone has secret agendas... Since you seem to always think this... it actually shows your lack of integrity, not the members you keep assaulting...
I know it's the problem of being a manufacturer - there are always people who attribute your every post to commercial motivations - I find these people think like this for various reasons, none of which reflect particularly well on their own motivations.If I promote it as the "best solution", it's because I have done some comparisons with other PSes powering the Regen. It's the best sounding solution I have heard - if you have something else to offer, say so & I'm sure it too can be evaluated
If people find my suggestion worthwhile, what's it to you?
If people take a further interest in looking at PSes in audio equipment, what's it to you?
If people look further into me or my products, what's it to you?
What exactly is your gripe??
Edits: 11/27/15
Just for information purposes I just read the TAS review of the $17k Aurender. Guess what they use as a power supply for sensitive digital circuits: Lithium ion phosphate (as described in article) batteries. Just sayin'. I'm not saying my Regen / Benchmark II HGC combo is now competitive with what the Aurender can give you but it does make a good case for trying these batteries.
I also don't understand all the flack JK is getting. If you don't want to try it, don't. I certainly don't want to scare JK out of here. It looks to me like he has a lot to offer.
Thanks Theob, I've started another thread for listening impressions which will hopefully avoid the numbskulls & know-it-alls that have infiltrated this one.Maybe you would like to post there your impressions so far of the tweak - anything posted here will just become lost in the mire.
BTW, there's lots of info about running various circuits of motherboards using these batteries on TirNaHiFi forum. Nige, on that forum, has been doing this for a number of years now with great improvement in sound. And it isn't just substituting an SMPS with batteries (as Aurender seem to have done) - it's more to do with directly powering various circuits of the motherboard with these batteries. My theory about why they improve matters is all down to reducing circulating ground currents.
Of course, my promotion of this "idea" & directing you to that forum opens me to accusations, by some, of introducing such a battery powered server as one of my future products!
Edits: 11/27/15 11/27/15
The power supply into the Regen is also a limiting factor.
Whilst waiting for the delivery of a LiFePO4 battery and a charger, I have by coincidence also been testing various forms of power supply into the Regen.
1. Terdak 9V into a TPS demo regulator set at 7.5 V output into the Regen.a The sound is OK but lacks the dynamics and resolution of a truly good system. Bass is somewhat loose.
2. SMSL 9V into the same system as above. SQ is much improved and a pleasure to listen to.
3. 5200 mAH LiPO battery direct into the Regen. Bass and mf + lf better resolved but slightly lacking in musicality of system 2. Bass is firmer though.
This SQ characteristic of the Regen needs to be qualitfied by the choice of LPS into my CI329 PC. Worst off is a 10A lab supply available on Amazon and elsewhere. With an extra 10000uF of added capacitance plus other hf bypasses, SQ is fine in the absence of a better LPS.
With a Paul Hynes 2.2A Shunt supply. Sound is musical and sound stage wide and deep but a little 'yang'. The overall sound is rather different from that from the lab supply and as different as using different supplies into the Regen. I shall need to reduce the standing current to about 1A for this shunt supply and listen again, not liking the very high component (50 to 70 C) temperatures when all that is needed is about 10VA or less.
With a Chinese 8A superegulator with R Core transformer (not the LT 19xx chipped variety) SQ is excellent, and even better when I bypassed the output with high quality hf capacitors built into the output silver coated ptfe power cable.
So the change in SQ using different power supplies into your PC is as much as that which can be obtained thru playing with the Regen power supply.
Hence my comment that it is difficult to say which tweak and which setup produces the best SQ. In fact, disabling the Windows Management Instrumentation Service in my audio PC giving the Player software real time priority causes as much change in SQ as other tweaks done without!
In fact, disabling the Windows Management Instrumentation Service in my audio PC giving the Player software real time priority causes as much change in SQ as other tweaks done without!"
As always, we end up on the same square.
"Everything Matters."
One thing to consider is that measurements have shown that noise on the REGEN power can couple into the analog output of some DACs. This appeared when the DAC was running in unbalanced output mode, but did not appear when the DAC was running in balanced output mode, presumably because of common mode rejection in the downstream device.
Were you running balanced or unbalanced? It may be that running balanced mode out of your DAC into your (pre)amp may make things less critical.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Balanced
I have managed many years without attempting to bypass my preamplifier's, or any other equipment power supplies with Batteries, though I have been tempted. But this seems like the right time to do it since we are dealing with such small voltages.
However, I have rather limited knowledge of batteries and chargers. I will have no issues finding the suggested 3.3V LiFePo4 batteries, but what amperage, or MA output capable should these batteries be capable of and what type/size trickle charger is best for this procedure?
If this upgrade is close to as good as claimed, then you are owed much thanks.
Thanks
The batteries are LiFePO4 (Lithium nano Ferrous Phosphate) which have a voltage of 3.3V (not 3.7V) & have a battery size known as 26650
You don't need a special battery charger - just a regulated supply that outputs 3.3V or 3.4V. Permanently connected to the battery it trickle charges it & there's no overcharging
Thank you very much. As my big Lambda power supply improved the sound through my Regen when compared with the stock wall wart, then I expect your solution to be even better. Thanks again.
Lance A
For those of us who have a JITTERBUG plugged into our DAC after (piggy backed onto the Regen), does that mean that the Jitterbug needs the 5 Volts that I am eliminating to work. Or is the 3.3 Volts from the battery enough to power the Regen and the Jitterbug?
Lance A.
The Jitterbug is a passive device - it doesn't need power!!
Ah, never really looked too deeply into the Jitterbug's power scheme. Thought maybe it used the USB 5 Volt line to operate. Totally passive though. Good to know. Thanks.
If UpTone would freaking SHIP the one I purchased from them and that they charged to my CC a month ago.
Just sayin'.
jkney,
So, those of us who have DACS, like my Auralic Vega, which requires a 5 Volt
Hand Shake for turn on only, then NO 5 Volt through the USB cable, will still need to use the external power supply and the bypass battery?
I am currently using a very nice power supply into the Regen;s stock power input connection. This supply made an obvious sonic upgrade to the Regen,s performance. So, am I correct that I will need the addition of the ground and 3.3V connection to bypass the stock regulator?
Lance A.
I believe at least some percentage of the improvements reported with the Regen are due to a cleaner 5V supply into audio devices that use the 5V (even for just signalling).If you can disconnect the 5V after your Vega handshakes with the Regen & everything operates fine then why not proceed as follows:
- connect the LiFePO4 battery as I suggested
- power your Regen with your PS as usual
- when handshake established with Vega, disconnect your PS to the Regen (leave battery connected)If you want a procedure that requires less manual intervention, you can get one of the USB solutions that provide external 5V substitution for Vbus (like Aqvox) or go the DIY route & provide 5V to the correct pins on the Regen's USB out
Edits: 11/23/15
Am having difficulty getting 5 volts to my battery operated Regen. Did you ever listen to a Regen with battery and the 7.5 Volts power plugged in. Is it that much of a degradation in sonics?
Edits: 11/24/15
No, I've never tried that config - battery powered Regen + Regen being powered from DC input.
Your config is:
- battery powered Regen
- feeding another Regen which is DC powered
My conjecture was that bypassing the regulators in the battery powered Regen either reduced low frequency noise and/or improved the transient response of the PS.
So putting a DC input powered Regen after the battery powered one MAY work against these improvements of the battery powered Regen.
But I could be wrong!
My REGEN worked when fed with 5 volts. I didn't realize that the power source was only outputting 5 volts so I wasn't looking for a sound quality difference, but if there was one it certainly didn't jump out. (This is with an unmodified Regen.)
If you have multiple devices wired into a chain between the computer and the DAC there are lots of combinations to try! More combinations than time, ...
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
It may output signals but certainly the TPS regulators won't work properly unless yours are seriously out of spec.
This is exactly the clarity of advice that I was hoping for. As I design and build all of my own cables I use a dual Type A USB cable. Once the hand shake is establish, then I disconnect the 5 Volt connection via the one USB Type A leg. Makes for a substantial sonic upgrade.
Any specific gauge of wire suggested for the 3.3 Volt/Ground connections to the battery supply? I assume that you simply make a small cable hole through the Regen's case and then return it's case to it's original position?
Last, As I was not around for the original discussion about the battery supply recommended, can you please tell me what battery supply to purchase and possibly where to make purchase?
Thanks a bunch.
Lance A.
I'm suggesting testing this first with whatever wire you want to prove it's sonic value
Figure out how best to case it back into it's original casing later
You will have to read through this thread - all the information about battery type & where to buy is in there
So the battery will be powering the circuit and the existing regulator.
Could there be an easy way to take the reg out of the circuit?
One wonders if the thing would sound better if it wasn't in the circuit?
Of course, we should be happy with what we have but what fun it that?
It's major surgery to remove the TPS regulators.
I suggest that you compare 3.3Vnbattery power with 7.4V LiPO battery power into the regulators. You are likely to find that each has its own flavour.
You can drill a hole on the facia for the 3.3V wire pair to exit. I may try to install a miniature dc socket.
No, the battery is on the output of the regulator - it's not powering it.
Don't power the Regen & the regs are turned off
If I do not disconnect the batteries from their respective "float charger" the AUDIOWIND LEDs will continue to be lit.
I figured the same thing would happen here.
Obviously not a problem but more audio speculation as to whether it makes any difference.
Not that I have any intention of removing that regulator ...
Btw I'm still using double Regens but since I charged up the batteries,isolated the batteries from aucustic feedback the Sonics are to die for. Depth, dynamics, low-level detail and delicacy of the highs (especially strings, guitars,mandolin) are really good.Thanks Jkeny. I"m going to listen for a few days before I go single Regen.
Cool!
Yes, try the single Regen at some point & let us know any difference!
You might then have a spare Regen for sale :)?
These batteries are capable of supplying a ton of instantaneous current. Careful handling and a fuse wouldn't be a bad idea.
Edits: 11/23/15
Did you see the Bear Gryllis show where he took the battery from a cell phone, stabbed it a couple times and then shorted it with his knife to start a fire. I think he was in Iceland.
Tiny little battery burned like a road flare!
Not the same battery chemistry - no risk of fire or battery explosion with LiFEPO4
no risk of fire or battery explosion with LiFEPO4
Hmmmm. A friend of mine, a more than competent technician, a year or two back popped an ordinary 9v alkaline battery into his trouser pocket. It shorted on his keys and gave him a nasty burn on the thigh. As he ruefully told me, he knew immediately what he'd done but that wasn't much consolation.
Fire hazards posed by commonplace batteries are well documented.
D
I know somebody who put his tongue on a frozen pole, once with nasty consequences!I would suggest that he doesn't attempt this tweak, either.
Edits: 11/24/15
no risk of fire or battery explosion with LiFEPO4
So you mean to say a battery that can source current in the 10's of Amperes is not a fire hazard? I suppose the battery itself might not ignite but we're talking about current that can melt wire insulation and can even weld metal.
Do you want the truth or just want to be pedantic & argue?The particular formulation of Lithium within LiFePO4 batteries is far more stable than the Lithium batteries that have "scare" stories about them blowing up or catching fire from overcharging.
Kenzo's Bear Gryllis story was comparing apples & bananas.
Of course, there's no accounting for stupidity & I'm sure certain people could find a way to blow them up - by putting them in their microwave, for instance - just as they can blow up their pets by doing the same thing! But that doesn't mean that their pets are a fire hazard
Edits: 11/24/15 11/24/15 11/24/15
"" But that doesn't mean that their pets are a fire hazard""
What if you cat in a pyromaniac?
Certain individuals just love to be negative.
There is always a risk of tire even when one puts a power hungry cpu powered by a kW smps, which is directly connected to the mains (without an isolation transformer).
It is up to diy individuals to find out and know what they are doing.
The negativity comes from a small group who don't want to hear that SQ can be improved easily and safely.
Just have a fire extinguisher nearly!
There is a risk with anything. High voltage with tube amps etc. I think everyone here are adults and can figure these things out.
I have just received my Li capable charger. It's going to take this adult at least 1/2 h to go thru the software based setup procedure. It is difficult to avoid trying to do the easy thing.
Eh, you didn't need a Li smart charger (btw, I hope it's a LiFePO4 one) - as I said already a number of times, a simple regulated 3.3V supply would do fine for trickle charging - we are not discharging & recharging these batteries during this usage
You seem to have a problem with other people not wanting to do what you do. In no way would I accept that 'best' practice is to charge while discharging.
I have 5200 mAH LiPOs which NEED a smart charger.
No problem at all but the whole point of what I detailed in this thread was using a LiFePo4 battery which has a 3.3V output & a discharge curve very suited to the task at hand. The 3.3V output is crucial to this as it avoids regulators & can directly power suitable digital devices - the Regen USB hub chip & clock are two such devices
Your use of Lipo batteries is far from this objective & I wonder why you asked me what were the best LiFePo4 batteries early in the thread?
Please ensure any impressions you post here are qualified by the type of batteries you are using & what regulators you are also using or better still start a new thread on your configurations so as not to pollute this one
It is clear that you have not absorbed the contents of my posts and is determined to defend your own commercial mojo/interest.
I can try and post anything I do to the Regen, as you have done with your battery and charger.
Not being pedantic & argumentative. Just pointing out safety concerns that you choose to ignore.
You can ignore the TRUTH but it's not about the battery formulation... it's about the amount of current the battery can source. I don't care if it's alkaline, lead acid, nickel metal hydride, etc.
If the battery can source 10's of Ampere's of current then there is a fire hazard and safety concerns... not necessarily in the battery itself but with wiring, handling, metal tools, short circuits, etc.
You yourself stated: "...the self noise is likely to be very minimal from a battery that can deliver 60Amps continuously & 120Amps instantaneously.
That kind of current can be a fire hazard, period.
Sure, I also said treat them like a car battery & that I started my car off 4 of them in series.Anybody who doesn't know enough about electricity to know that a car battery should be respected & care taken with it shouldn't be going near opening up an electronic device to tweak it.
Edit: But you are correct to warn about this - I have edited my first post to warn people about the risks, thanks for this heads-up
Edits: 11/24/15 11/24/15
There are inmates here who don't know the hot end of a soldering iron and at least one who has blown up his Tek oscilloscope by probing around where he didn't belong.
Just want to be safe. I would suggest a fuse somewhere inline with the battery. Just a thought.
"There are inmates here who don't know the hot end of a soldering iron "
Been there, done that. That was a painful lesson. Also managed to touch an RF antenna coupler handling 1 KW at 7 Mhz. This was not painful in the least, and I didn't notice anything until I smelled burning flesh. Fortunately, there was no significant damage. Worst, I somehow managed to touch the secondary of a neon sign transformer, or at least that's my theory. I don't recall the details, just coming to in a pile on the opposite side of the room. (These events were more than 50 years ago.)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Sure, I've put a warning on my first post
Having the board outside of the case makes for an easier installation with WAVE IO.
Don't have a spare 26650 so will order one today. Plus, as you know, my DAC project is still underway so I will be making the mod but will not be able to report for a week or so.
First of all thank you very much for your post. Since, per my other post, I still wasn't sure of where to tap into I measured the spot I believe/ I think you described. When I measured via 5 to the bottom of C3 I got -3.3 volts. Do I still have the wrong points to bring in a LiFePo4 battery?
Are sure you don't have the leads reversed?
Pretty sure. Probably does not make a difference to run as a free standing power source but makes a big difference if one is to use the power plug as a trickle charge .
I'm not in my office at the moment & haven't got the board in front of me but I was pretty sure that the via with the number 5 beside it (just above the ceramic cap) was the positive pole.
Don't reverse connect the battery - it will burn out the ICs - it's not a floating PS!
This is really a conundrum. I want to do the mod (I have batteries) but right now I am not clear on what to do.
Wait until I'm back in my office in about an hour & I will measure the voltage points again to confirm
Ok thanks
OK, I'm very, very sorry - you are correct - the via near "5" is the GROUND & the other end of the cap is 3.3V.
I'm glad you measured this before connecting anything - good DIY practise always pays
Where I went wrong is that I used a twisted pair of wires from a CAT5 cable to make this connection & mixed up the colour Vs polarity!!
I'll change this on my first post
Thanks
Interested to hear your impressions!
In my system I have 2 Regens back to back. Since the 1st Regen into the 2nd Regen does not require the 5 Volts I put the
JK mod into the that Regen. My dac does require the 5 V. Since as I recall Swenson saying this element of the Regen does not pull a lot of current I have a pair of A123 driving very narrow wires just pushed into the via holes to test proof of concept. So since its not soldered yet its not optimum but it sounds better already. More focused less loose than baseline. I will solder and restate my comments
Very good!
I would suggest using only 1 Regen with this mod & providing the 5V needed in an alternative way.
I believe you are missing some of the benefit of the "direct" 3.3V battery supply by passing through a second Regen
Yes but how do I supply the 5 volts to the dac? Would appreciate your ideas.
Do you have a clean 5V supply? You could connect this to the USB output on the Regen?
Ok I played around with acoustically isolating the 2 battery cell and whoa more delicacy/depth/hall sound. Funny once my cell of batteries was fully charged the charger pilot light turns green and wow it sounds good. I have a few files which are my test music and yes they never sounded so good. A complete success with more to go.
Ok I think I figured it out. Apply 5 volts onto the 2 outer pins of the points into the USB out on the Regen mobo. I guess I could use my 2nd Regen as the source. What do you think?Btw soldering helped plus putting on a trickle charger actually made the little Amber light brighter and the sound a bit better. So I am guessing my charge was a bit low on the batteries.
Edits: 11/23/15
Yes that's a good plan -just make sure you have the polarity correct :)
Connecting The charger shouldn't result in a brighter led - as you say your battery probably was low - leave it on trickle charge overnight.
i'd just like to make a few 'notes' on batteries and Lithium chemistry in more particular.
It is important to note 2 things. Lithium and Lithium ION batteries are 2 different categories.
But in EITHER you will have a choice of several chemistries. This leads to one major, common outcome. You will have a wide choice of Cell Voltage to deal with. The Lithium Polymer with very high energy density typically has a cell voltage of 3.7 volts. So, a '3 cell' battery will be 11.1 volts fully charged. These batteries are also rated with a 'C' value which somehow reflects the ability to discharge very rapidly. Some of the hobby motors used can Easily have in excess of a 40 amp draw. A low internal resistance battery is ESSENTIAL.
Some other lithium chemistries are both higher and lower voltage. Some are low enough to be used as direct replacements for your good old Alkaline battery.
A little research on the part of those wishing a battery replacement should yield some good results. I'm certain that a low internal resistance battery which is also low noise CAN be found.
One in particular, a Li-SOCl2 chemistry is good in VERY cold conditions. This battery, if kept cold MAY also have lower noise? Call it about 3.5 volts in use. I have NO idea how to 'refrigerate' a battery in-use.
Some lithium cells are and some are NOT rechargeable. Don't try to recharge a single-use cell or you might have a problem.
The Hobby Shop types sell a recharger BAG to contain any potential problems when recharging your Li-ion battery and some of the chargers are VERY smart, indeed, even capable of 'balancing' the voltage between cells.
In some of the above posts, I see reference to both a 5v and 3v regulated PS. This, I think, means you need a battery to supply a higher voltage then than highest output voltage you wish.
Too much is never enough
Thanks for all the info on various batteries but what we are focusing on here is LiFEPO4 batteries which have a steady voltage of 3.3V until they reach their low charge point when they quickly fall to their minds V of 2.7V
It's important not to confuse this battery chemistry with other s
Lithium Iron Phosphate is one of the older Lithium ION batteries.
A search of other chemistries will show many (several?) which have similar discharge curves.
If the voltage does indeed have a REGULATOR, than is doesn't matter as long as the voltage is a certain amount OVER the desired regulated voltage. Did I read some complaints about noisy regulators in this thread?
Some of the newer chemistries are available in size '18650' of which the Tesla uses THOUSANDS per auto and are maybe the swiss army knife of batteries. Available now in up to 5000mah with stable voltage during much of its capacity. Voltage starts at 3.7v
The reason I suggest that particular cell, is that you can buy 'em WITH a little charger, keep a spare pair charged so you NEVER go flat and the low self-discharge means long shelf life. i do not know the spec for internal resistance or any noise issues with this cell.
Too much is never enough
Thanks again, Pictureguy, you seem to have a good knowledge of battery chemistry. What we want to avoid is a regulator on the battery output. Can you nominate any others that have 3.3V output & a similar discharge curve to LiFePO4 batteries?Regulation from my experiments so far, have proven to be noticeably detrimental to the sound when compared to using power from the batteries directly.
I've mostly used these batteries on digital ICs which require 3.3V power. I'm not sure if it's the low noise (especially at LF) or fast transient response that accounts for their advantages in this role? The only regulators which seem to come close to these batteries are the Paul Hynes ones so it's possible to build. He has different regulators for different roles, digital or analogue power, low current or high current & he emphasises transient response for digital but I would also add low noise at low frequencies as also being important for clocks, etc. These batteries seem to check both of these boxes
I've also tried them on smallish, chip-based power amplifiers & the improvements were also noticeable
Edits: 11/23/15
I'm getting out of my depth, but have you considered fabricating a DISCRETE regulator? Maybe thru the use of a Zener Diode?
I'm certain that someone who KNOWS can help you with this.
As for batteries? You'll have to go to the next level thru some research.
As a start? Simply GOOGLE 'lithium battery' or 'lithium ION battery'. The Wiki would be where I'd start. Keep in mind that things change LOTS and quickly, so such articles may not be up to the second.
Too much is never enough
Huh??
You seem to have the wrong end of the stick, here.
Why do you think I might want a discrete regulator - these batteries perform better than any regulator I've tried - the only regs that come close are the Paul Hynes ones which are very much more expensive than a battery.
Thanks for all your input on batteries so far but I was hoping you might have been able to answer the question I asked - what other battery chemistry will give 3.3V & the same discharge slope as LiFePO4? I'm not particularly looking for a replacement for LiFePO4 batteries but as you say yourself - with regard to information "Too much is never enough"
This'll be my last post on the subject.
PLEASE, by all and any means, try the WIKI on Lithium Batteries. Find a cell with higher than required voltage and Than see if you can dig out the discharge curve. I've got lots on my plate (so to speak) and while I'd love to get into the minutia of your dilemma, I simply don't have the free time.
A few sources for discrete regulator information may be either DIY Audio or perhaps Elliot Sound Products. Paul Hynes didn't INENT this category, but does it well.
If you are interested in 3.3v OPEN CIRCUIT, I don't offhand know of an exact match. Some are higher, some are lower.
Knowledge of the tolerance of the circuit may also help choose a battery. Some electronics may work at -+0.2v given a 3.3v nominal. Something along those lines:
Too much is never enough
Hey pictureguy, again you seem to have the wrong end of the stick - maybe you are reading too fast & not comprehending? Your replies, although they seemed to promise a knowledgeable source of information on batteries, now seem more confusing than enlightening.
I don't have ANY dilemma - I find the LiFePO4 batteries perfect for my requirements & perfectly suited to the PS roles I have used them in. A 3.3V open-circuit is perfect using these & provides substantial advantages.
I don't believe there are any alternatives which match the characteristics of LiFePO4s & you seemed to hint at knowledge of this area but no worries.
Thanks anyway for your input
You want someone to TELL you what you need to know.
I want, or would desire you, to do some research. Everything is out there for your reading pleasure.
If you are happy with the current (no pun intended) situation, why bother to write?
Too much is never enough
Wow, you really do not comprehend my post sor what the thread is about, do you?
Sure, easy.
You don't like regulators and have replaced it with a battery which to you sounds much better.
So what? You mentioned some guy who I looked up and he does make some neat looking discreet regulators. You said they were too much $$, even though a fixed cost rather than a recurring cost of battery replacement and the hassle of recharging. I get the impression you think THOSE sound OK, or is that mistook?
Now what?
Too much is never enough
So this is why this place is called the "asylum" !!
Edits: 11/24/15
More subjective comments: after listening for 7 hours I am convinced that timbre has never been better in my system. This is especially noticed on good piano recordings. Almost lost is the superb bass: tight yet full. The other thing is air around everything. It is really enjoyable to have such a major impact on sound from just knowledge (thanks Jkeny) and minimal work. Can a single Regen be even better?
Thanks for the reprt, Theob - yes they are all the SQ characteristics that I have heard with this tweak.
Can a single Regen can be better? I suspect so but only trying it will sort this out
I will get there its just a matter of time. Other obligations in this US holiday week.
Sure, I wasn't pressurising you, just answering your post
No offence taken.
One more comment on the sonics. All instruments seem to emanate from a smaller space within the larger acoustic. As a result the imaging is phenomenal. Especially in a well recorded classical piece. I have one of those Spring music...4 Seasons et al.... files. One cut is a Vivaldi movement for mandolin and orchestra. You can almost guess the distances between instruments. You see the space.
Edits: 11/24/15
theob,
I would love to see a photo of your Regen board wired up with the bypass. Not that jkeney's original board photo and very clear descriptions won't get the job done, but things always feel better with a photo of the done deal.
Thanks Guys.
Send me an email
Chopper87@aol.com
Thanks a bunch! I just finished ordering some of the batteries and an appropriate charger. Your photo/s will help my confidence that I am doing it correctly.
Lance A
theobetley@gmail.com
My theory is that the solidity of the soundscape is the result of the lower low frequency noise of the battery & the resultant lower close-in phase noise of the clock but it's only a theory
I don't doubt the perceptions, but the theory seems somewhat incomplete. The problem is that the clock is the USB bit clock. Phase noise has nothing to do with phase noise modulating the audio clock, because this clock is at a totally unrelated frequency. A possible theory might add that the regulator noise caused jitter in the USB bit clock affects the USB receiver circuitry's power consumption. This is related to John S's theory of how the REGEN works to improve sound quality, but as far as I know this is just speculation as there is no hard evidence of what is going on.
We do know that noise on the REGEN power can be coupled into the analog output of some DACs in the form of common mode noise. This noise appears at the packet clock rate (8 kHz), indicating that the regulation isn't sufficiently stiff.
It beats me why DAC designers don't deal with these issues. There is no excuse for any 8 kHz noise to appear in the output of any USB DAC, regardless of the input signal, assuming only that the input signal conforms to the USB specification.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Why the usb interface is used without recognising the noise problems?
Yes, Tony, sorry my theory was a more general observation about what the characteristic improvements in SQ I have perceived Vs what I believe is the underlying cause of them.I find that the solidity & pinpoint placement of instruments in soundstage seems to emanate from reduction in close-in phase noise although I haven't measured this. However, what often accompanies such reduction in phase noise is also a reduction in the playback system noise. So these two factors are often interwoven & difficult to separate. The reduction in general playback system noise gives an impression of better realism to the sonic illusion.
Now, how exactly these two possible mechanisms are the result of using the Regen & improved by the battery tweak, I'm not sure - it seems to me that improving the digital signal does result in improved sonics but by what mechanism, I'm not sure. My simplistic thinking was that improving the PS to the USB clock was contributing to a better formed USB signal waveform being output from the Regen. Of course improving the Regen's PS also reduces noise on the output signal of the Regen. So, again we have an intertwining of mechanisms.
JS's speculation on how the Regen works was dealt a significant blow, in my mind, when JW (John Westlake) revealed that there is no ramping up of current in the USB PHY when dealing with progressively worsening signal integrity of the USB signal - no such mechanism exists in USB 2.0 receivers, only in USB receivers designed to handle USB 3. So, although I was initially a supported of the JS theory of operation - it seems less accurate to me now
But then theory is great but observation comes first or as an ex prime minister of ours used to say - that works in practise, now let's see if it works in theory :)
As regards CM noise - it's a lesser known issue on USB audio devices - most designers only consider differential noise & conclude that the differential USB receiver will take care of that, mistakenly, in my view. CM noise just isn't often on their radar
Edits: 11/25/15
In these days of rapid accumulation of knowledge in just about everything, it seems that we are even less capable of resolving mutlti parameter issues in software/hardware performance. In fact, the reverse is the case in that we now seem to latch on one thing or another, and simply speculate.
You might not know who JK is. I think he REALLY knows what he is talking about, and does not need any help. :)
Since you posted the in depth post on batteries maybe it was thought you had a direct relationship with the Energizer Bunny and could reveal some trade secrets, not just reference Wikipedia.
Regards
Bob
Wouldn't know JK if he ran over me in a crosswalk. Am I supposed to know him?
I was trying to simply help him find a better battery. Battery measurables include internal resistance and of course the voltage / output curve which for JK's purposes, needs to be as flat as possible. Given the huge number of Li and Lion chemistries, I'm not about to plow thru it looking for what is probably a marginal improvement, though you could get lucky. The battery chemistry which JK uses is from the 'dawn' of the Lithium technology and may have been bettered in ways that matter to HIM.
Too much is never enough
Where did I say I was looking to find a better battery??
what constitutes an improvement in SQ and is a battery really better than a good regulator?
When feeding a circuit with a battery, there is self noise from the battery itself to consider, if there is no further bypassing. There is little information of practical use in audio that I can find wrt LiFePO4 battery noise in this regard.
I don't think that one can say for certain that battery power is always superior.
I was in a dealer demo room which had several LiPO powered usb to I2S hdmi converters lying around. I asked why and was told that that the batteries had all failed. This was in spite of a clever self activated inbuit charging circuit.
The manufacturer has recently abandoned this design and had gone over to dc power, with an expensive super capacitor reservoir unit as an accessory!
When one trickle charges a battery which is providing power, there is the situation where discharge and charge chemistries are taking place at once. Is this good? Who knows.
"what constitutes an improvement in SQ and is a battery really better than a good regulator?"Your question would be answered by listening!
"When feeding a circuit with a battery, there is self noise from the battery itself to consider, if there is no further bypassing."
At such low currents as are drawn by digital ICs (usually in mA), the self noise is likely to be very minimal from a battery that can deliver 60Amps continuously & 120Amps instantaneously.
"When one trickle charges a battery which is providing power, there is the situation where discharge and charge chemistries are taking place at once. Is this good? Who knows."
Try it & see if it affects SQ.
As to long term reliability of batteries - just look at electric vehicles which use exactly the same batteries - are they reliable?
But I like your approach to issues - look for the weaknesses first - it's the approach I use too!
Edits: 11/23/15
I have ordered the batteries you suggested, but this doesn't stop the mental questioning. Battery noise is not a function of battery capacity and is a function of chemistry; the smaller the current draw, the more significant it is likely to be as a percentage of output.
How long does one of your recommended batteries last if one does not trickle charge?
"I have ordered the batteries you suggested, but this doesn't stop the mental questioning. Battery noise is not a function of battery capacity and is a function of chemistry;"
It's a function of both - look at the TNT you alluded to about battery noise
" the smaller the current draw, the more significant it is likely to be as a percentage of output."
You can keep doing mental questioning but why not wait until you get the batteries & your questions will be answered empirically?
"How long does one of your recommended batteries last if one does not trickle charge?" I haven't tried one on the Regen but you can figure this out mathematically or empirically
"I have ordered the batteries you suggested, but this doesn't stop the mental questioning. Battery noise is not a function of battery capacity and is a function of chemistry;"
It appears that larger capacity batteries of the same chemistry have lower noise. This is what one would expect. Simply paralleling identical batteries will reduce the noise due to cancellation.
A little googling found a reference that supports your claim that larger capacity batteries are going to have lower noise.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
If you read the paper correctly, it is the internal resistance related to larger capacity batteries that leads to lower self noise, and on it's basis, one would use NiCads with their lousy self leakage and life issues that should be tried.
Papers like these often lead to untested speculations.
And what is the internal impedance of these A123 LiFePO4 batteries, then?
You are the expert, you tell me.
There is no collated information on the performance of batteries in audio other than the TNT stuff and uncorrelated posts.
I used batteries as early as the 1970s and every piece of battery powered audio gear I have had had posed operational and longevity issues. Note my post about the latest and expensive battery powered usb to I2S spdif processors (LiPO nano Technology quote) I found lying about in a dealer's demo room!
Ah well, if you don't find this approach of much interest to you then it isn't for you - no talking will change that but I thought you ordered some LiFePO4 batteries so I'm confused by your mixed messages??
You need to read and understand my posts before making points such as these.
I did not say that battery power is no good; I said that there wer problems also and that altering other play back components also have as much effect as using battery power ie SQ is a multi parameter characteristic.
I have read your posts which seem to throw up quite a lot of speculative reasons for not using batteries - most of your speculation is based on uninformed sources of information so I wouldn't elevate them to the phrase you used "reasons for not using batteries".But I look forward to your impressions of the use of these LiFePO4 batteries in this particular application
Edits: 11/26/15
I speculated as much and as little as you have.
Much of what I said has been based on 20 years of using batteries for audio and on other people's experience (including dealers).
Posting links to a few academic papers on some batteries and zooming in on one or two sentences isn't a basis for promoting it's use (or otherwise).
I've been using these particular batteries for over 5 years now in various digital & analogue devices so I have some direct experience from which I'm speculating. What started off as a seemingly healthy sceptical view seems more like a deep well of negativity.
But I don't want to enter a pissing contest with you - just let us know your impressions when & if you do the tweak.
My general experience with regard to batteries has been similar to fmak's. The have been nothing but a PITA in various applications. However, I have not tried the latest battery technology (unless it is hidden in one of my portable devices and so far, none of these has shown any miraculous properties as to reliability). In the past I had some really harsh demands on my batteries, namely powering avionics in my sailplane at high altitudes when it is very cold.
One thing I would like to see is measurements of noise on the output of the battery when it is being attacked by the type of load generated by computer logic (e.g. CMOS) where there is huge spikiness of the load at various frequencies depending on both hardware and software. I suspect this requires bypass right near the load, in any event since the inductance of the wiring between an ideal battery and the load would still leave noise.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I agree and this is good practice.
To categorically say that no additional bypassing should be done when powering a usb chip thru a battery is theoretically and practically unsustainable. And to add that trickle charging by a power supply at the same time does not affect the operation or SQ is suspicious. All other battery power devices I have come across disconnect the charging power source when playing audio.
I actually get a big improvement in SQ powering the Regen with a 7.4V LiPO battery that should last for a long time.
In the days to come I shall directly power the Regen with a 3.3V LiFePO4 battery and a 3.3V Jung type regulator with preregulator, and compare/post sonic impressions.
My recent encounter with a major dealer's dead LiPO nano powered devices was a reminder that battery supplies do not last.
Anybody with half a brain cell left intact would know that there are bypass caps at the load i.e. at all the power pins of the USB Hub chip & on the PS input pin of the clock.In this thread, I am giving my long experience in using these batteries with chargers - you can be suspicious all you like about this but experience counts for a lot more than uninformed speculation.
I'm sure the people who try this will be able to report on the other thread who is correct & who is uninformed.
Edits: 11/27/15
Is 20 years longer than 5 years? What education and training in electronics do you have?A small capacitor next to the usb chip serves only as local hf bypass. Half a brain should know this.
You are advising everyone to bypass any of the protection afforded by the power supply chip in the Regen, and run an unrestrained high current dc supply into someone's expensive usb dac with no caution at all.
From a manufacturer, this is unacceptable advice.
Edits: 11/27/15
Are you trying to say you have 20 years experience using these LiFePo4 batteries - that would be some claim as the technology wasn't available to the public, 20 years ago.Why not plague some other thread with your BS or has everybody already cottoned onto you & ignores you?
It would seem that is the prudent thing to do - bye!
Edit: I see you edited your post since I replied. Yes local HF bypass is all that's needed. The battery itself acts as a very large capacitor with very low internal impedance & capability of delivering gobs of current as fast as required. The move of digital to lower voltages has resulted in higher current spikes & these batteries answer most, if not all of the requirements required for a good digital PS.
But then I expect you will come up with more BS speculative issues & snide remarks which will be ignored
Edits: 11/27/15 11/27/15 11/27/15 11/27/15
The issue I have with trickle charging the battery while listening to music is that there remains a potential coupling path for power line noise. This may or may not be a factor in any given environment, but it is at least a potential confounding variable and source of frustration.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Sure, Tony, I had the same thoughts when I first started on this journey with batteries - until I tried it :) They seem to also act as very large capacitors - capacitance in the Farads. The distinction between capacitors & batteries is becoming hazy - with Lithium capacitors 40F to 270F - the new term for these are energy storage devicesOthers have found no audible difference between charger connected or not in various configurations with various chargers & at least one poster here has reported the same - theob, on the other thread.
Edits: 11/27/15 11/27/15 11/27/15 11/27/15
Well, I started this thread to allow people investigate these batteries in this particular application. I can assure you that it improves the sound quality of the Regen many fold - much more than the difference between different PSes powering the Regen through its DC input.
I can also assure you that these batteries have been used on motherboards in the areas you mention (memory being one of the spikiest current devices) to great effect. Measurements - no? Audible differences - yes!
Did anybody read the paper I linked to?
Although it didn't specifically investigate the noise of this battery chemistry it did draw speculative conclusions based on the range of batteries it measured - namely the capacity of the battery had a bearing but particularly the internal impedance was a major factor in the noise of the battery.
As I asked Fmak before, did he know the internal impedance of these LiFePo4s. If anybody reads that paper I referenced & understands it, they will see that the internal impedance is the critical factor in both voltage noise & current noise of a battery.
So my question to Fmak was to check if he had done any research into these batteries or were his speculations based on uninformed guessing. The batteries are measured at below 8 milliohms internal impedance from which you draw your own conclusion
As to noise measurements - I doubt you will find any in the applications you
that 8 mOhm internal resistance is what makes a battery tick a sonic high.
As an audiophile I live for the days when I have a good powerline. On these days one can really assess if a tweak really is an improvement. Yesterday was such a day . I listened all day long until it ended. It was really a lot of fun. I can assuredly tell you that this tweak is magnificent.
Yea, it remains to be seen if others try this or if the naysayers frighten them off or others try it - time will tell
Hey, my parts are on the way. I will offer a clear objective and unbiased opinion of this upgrade/modification. I have NO friends or enemies here, no axes to grind. Although I am hoping for a marked sonic upgrade.
Lance A
Best to post on the listening impressions thread - this one is probably scuppered!
Maybe I should just make a post on this thread to bring it to the top of the list & act as a magnet for those who are compelled to post "noise" - consider it like one of those ultraviolet fly zapper traps?
Yes, Tony & if Fred or any others want to delve into battery noise measurements, they should leave that TNT article alone & look at some real research from NIST (national Institute of Standards & Technology) here:
http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1133.pdf"In this paper a measurement system capable of measuring voltage noise below -200dBV/Hz is discussed & it's ability to characterise experimentally high performance voltage references is explored. The results of such measurements on common batteries are presented......"
Unfortunately, LiFePO4 batteries are not covered but it does show an inverse correlation of noise to battery size - the lower noise comes from larger batteries
But here are some measurements on LiFePO4 batteries which might be of interest - no noise measurements but internal impedance measurements given if I could only understand Nyquist plots of impedances!
Edits: 11/25/15 11/25/15
There seems to be a wide range of LiFePO4s on sale with A123s being much more expensive.
Can you please post details of the one you find best, it's capacity, and the charging arrangement?
Doesn't the hard connection of an active charger propagate noise and what about the battery's self noise?
I agree with you about the regulator, which I assessed when it came out. This one is susceptible to noise pickup, especially LF, which is bad for the clock. I posted this in CA but the post got 'buried'.
Thanks for the suggestions.
Right now, I believe that the power supply into the Regen stock unit also makes a big difference. I have tried 3 - 7.4V LiPO, 2 9Vs into another 7.8V Demo TPS regulator, and they all sounded different, with the better SQ from the battery and a SMSL P1 regulator. A Teradak 9V is not good at all.
You don't need A123 batteries, I just mentioned them as being the first to market & probably the best but for this use any LiFePO4 battery will do, I believe.
To charge it just provide a 3.3 or 3.4V supply to the battery on a continuous basis - this will just trickle charge it. The only problem you could possibly have is if you let the battery deplete by running power from it & not charging it. This is not recommended for the battery health & recharging from depleted draws a large an amount of current from the charger- you just need to either avoid this situation or recondition the battery with a charger that can handle a large current draw.
I already answered the question about any noise coming from the charger - the battery acts a a very large capacitor effective over a wide frequency range & absorbs 99% of any noise. Try it with various chargers & see if you can hear or measure noise on the battery output.
As regards self-noise - this is based on an old report on batteries in TNT. This report didn't include these modern battery chemistries. There are some NIST reports on the noise of these batteries showing exceptionally low noise
You can get 123A Lithium Batteries through SureFire at a fair price.
No, no - be very careful - they seem to be Lithium ion batteries & not Lithium Ferrous nano Phopsphate (LIFePO4). The major difference being that the Lithium batteries operate at 3.7V whereas LiFePO4 operate at a constant 3.3v which is what you want.You don't need the A123 make of LiFEPO4 batteries, any LiFEPO4 will do - the size is 26650 - try searching for these. You want the ones with tabs already welded onto the battery ends as it makes it much easier to solder wires to. Something like these
Edits: 11/23/15 11/23/15
Wouldn't it be easier to simply connect a battery using a dc connector to go right into the existing DC power input socket on the case?
Voila' no opening the case, no soldering/de-soldering, no voiding of warranty, instant test? etc.
Sorry I didn't say this in my first post - I'll correct that now! This method, using a LiFePo4 battery to provide 3.3V power, bypassing the 3.3V onboard regulator, provides a far superior sound than using 2 of the same batteries (for 6.6V) to power the Regen through its DC input. This signifies that the regulator is a limiting factor.
Edits: 11/22/15
well I haven't tried the mod but this is definitely one of those cases where I would be somewhat skeptical that there could be audible difference, sorry.
If you don't even want to try it because yu dn't believe it, why bother arguing?
Check out for a proper argument
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdoGVgj1MtY
LOL, arguing? Are you a J.D.?
Are you sure you even know what an argument is? LOL
This is not a forum for destructive I don't believe posts, or shouldn't be.
Sure, nothing wrong with being skeptical - that's why I said for people to try it & post their comments.
I believe rickmcinnis might have a Regen & LifePO4 batteries so he might be first to post if he's willing to try it?
Assume you are talking about C3? Also can the solder points be made on the bottom rather than the top? Bottom looks like a clean access point.
I see this. I have been wondering how difficult this is to do since reading about it within the "report" at Tir Na.
A few questions.
Are you leaving the PCB out of the enclosure? I am assuming you are.
Does the internal regulator act as a float charger or are you charging the battery when not using the REGEN? Or can the internal regulator be used to charge the battery?
THANKS,
and would see the charging aspect was addressed.
Glad you are participating here but hope it does not diminish your posts at Tir Na!
Take care,
Good questions, Rick
You can try using the 3.3V regulator as a trickle charger for the battery but remember powering the Regen from the DC input will also power the 5V regulator which may put some noise on the ground plane.
Try it & post your comments here.
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