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I have finally been able to install and use the Regen on my audio PC, which is a dc powered Zotac CI320 running minimised 8.1 x64, with no other functionality than external audio (all external communication means have been removed/disabled also).
Playing 176.4 and 192k files at 32 bit, the Regen with smps power supply tended to smooth out sound from audio files but dynamics suffered as a result - not the best of improvement.
Using a TPS 7.5V power supply into the Regen, SQ improved considerably with dynamics restored and an easy, clear, and much improved reproduction came about.
Finally a LiPo 7.5 V battery was substituted, and this has given the best SQ so far. Good bass, mid and high, with imaging steady, stable and solid. The improvement in quality and ease on the ear has been considerable; a worthwhile device to have installed.
Warning: the above findings have been based on the Regen supplying a W4S DSDSe via an iFi USB power; the reason for so doing being the lack of a suitable (length and quality) usb cable for the setup. The iFi was used without the 'iso' ground engaged and the SQ changes were relative to the iFi being directly linked to the PC.
Follow Ups:
In my view the contribution of a Regen is "circumstantial". I do not know if I am using the term properly, but what I mean is that Regen contribution, and possibly improvement, varies from system to system.
Sometimes such slight improvement can be actually and objectively measured (see my post on WTB discussion). Other times with other DACs a worsening in SQ is measurable.
From a listening point of view I personally experienced an initial pleasurable appreciation upon Regen insertion. Later, by updating USB receiver, I experienced a deterioration of sound (I always employed a LPS). I also believe that many people confuse, or actually prefer (nothing wrong with that), fatter sound with improvement in body of sound. I may have been subjected to the same effect.
Hey, Bibo01, would you or Tom be interested in doing an NTD test on the tweaked battery powered Regen I'm talking about in the other thread?
I would pay for the send & return postage to Tom in Italy (I believe?).
I'm sure you or Tom will hear a definite difference with this Regen & I would be interested to see how it shows up (or doesn't?) in the NTD test
I will reply to you in pvt
OK, no problem
just about everything one can change in any reasonably high quality audio system meets your definition of circumstantial?
in my experience matching power output to frequency response to impedance of inputs and outputs to room dimensions and configuration to human listener's hearing to, to, to makes a big difference in whether a particular change accomplishes what I want in a particular system.
how 'clean' your system is.
I used it on a dealer's sytem with the same dac and it had less effect than his own 'homemade' usb port 'pacifier'. I think it was his speakers, his server and my laptop source.
My audio system has no less than 5 high quality power supplies, plus a regenerator for the dac.
My system is pretty clean :)
Measurements were made on different PC+Regen+DACs with whole system on battery or linear power lines.
Bibo01, I would be interested in your listening experience & NCD measurements of the direct battery powering of the Regen that I suggested to FMAK.
In a recent audio meeting we compared a Regen (powered by LPS) Vs my direct powered Regen on a highly modified audio PC with linear powered USB ports (PPA USB card) & the differences were very evident, audibly - (report posted on TirnaHiFi)
I know that Tom has used a Fiamm 12v battery and results on NTD were negligible compared to LPS.
Tried this battery on a Regen & measured it?
What my experiments showed was that the voltage regulator is probably a limiting factor. Running the Regen directly from LiFePo4 (bypassing the Vreg) was substantially better sounding than powering the Regen using LiFePO4 batteries powering the Regen through its DC input socket.
And I didn't find much notable difference between SMPS, LPS or batteries when powering through its DC input socket.
Can you show/explain where the power input points are on the Regen mobo?
Sure! I'll start a new thread on it!
.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Or is your judgement based on listening?Powering your pc with a LPS isn't good enough. Big sonic gains can be had by powering your hdds and usb ports separately and by using good usb cables of SHORT lengths.
Comapred to the Wyrd, the Regen makes a much better difference, whatever Schiit says. Actually they power the Wyrd with a 30 year old 723 IC (which has broken down in my unit) and this supports my point about power supplies.
I am listening to Livingston Taylor hires right now. His voice is not FAT. It is clearer and the whole reproduction has the merits of what I said in the thread.
Edits: 11/19/15
I agree, Fred, just powering your PC with LPS or battery instead of supplied power brick or SMPS PSU isn't sufficient for realising high quality SQ from computer audio. There seems to be so much ground noise pollution on motherboards which ultimately finds it's way to USB connected audio devices via ground &/or signal wires that the only way to address this is to isolate & power individual sections of the PC. What this seems to do is to localise the ground noise to that section & prevent it from polluting the rest of the motherboard?
As you have done, treating the big sources of such current noise first is critical - anything which has large pulsed current draws is a candidate for this treatment - any electromechanical devices such as HDDs. Interestingly, memory is also a good candidate for such treatment as is USB ports.
You will find much more detail on that forum I suggested.
Even LPS powered Regens sound different depending on the LPS. The usual Teradak 9V doesn't sound that great either.
Superdad didn't like it when I said in response to his posts about 'expensive' TPS regulators being 'best' that there are actually better regulators that won't break the bank, but he tried to divert the subject of discussion. I therefore would guess that your experience of direct regulation being better to be true..
Nevertheless, the Regen des remove the last bits of hf distortion in hirez replay and is worthwhile. I get better SQ from a 10 cm Wireworld Starlight Silver than from the 'solid' connector which is not solid in terms of construction. Using it, I can hear some hf anomaly.
Sure - don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that the Regen, powered by LPS or even SMPS, doesn't improve matters somewhat, for most - it's just that feeding with LiFePO4 battery directly is a very noticeable improvement.
I agree with your findings fmak. I know that UpTone is working on a new power supply for the REGEN that will be an upgrade (meaning not included with the REGEN).
I have since tried two different good 9v power supplies to the 7.5V TPS regulator ahead of the Regen, and they sound somewhat different!I have also powered the Zotac using a 19.5V high power (8A) 'super regulator', and this sounds better than the 10A lab supply I have been using.
Pity the not fully charged LIPO battery didn't last more than 6 hours. Will investigate.
Edits: 11/18/15
Try a LiFePo4 directly powering the Regen's USB hub chip & clock, bypassing the TI's reg - you will be amazed at the uplift in SQ. It's not a difficult or destructive modification.
Of course there is no 5V Vbus output so if your USB audio device needs this 5V power for sensing or powering, you will have to supply this in some alternative way.
You can also do what I have been doing for years on all my DAC's - using these batteries to power the DAC & trickle charging them while running. The quality of the connected charger is 99% immaterial - the battery acts as a very large bulk capacitor blocking 99% of PS noise from the 3.3V charging the battery.
If you are brave you can extend this idea to powering sections of your PC using this technique - the SQ gains are again substantial.
Look into TirnaHiFi forum where Nige2000 has taken this idea & run with it to great effect on his PC
Instinctively I don't like the risks and the limitations of using them. However, I do believe from experience that they can improve SQ as you said. Nowadays I prefer using very good superregulators that I don't need to switch off.
I have just bought a smart charger and an 'explosion' bag, plus a large 5200 mAH battery to see how long this will last.
LiFePO4s do not have the explosion/fire hazard risks of stock LiPOs, if this is what you mean?
They can also be continuously trickled charged even when playing so no need to turn off!
With LiFePOs, the capacity is more limited and one needs to parallel a number to get 5000 mAH or more.
What are the best LiFes available in your experience, and so you decouple them before and after?
They are very well suited to powering digital ICs which usually require 3.3V & 2300mAH is perfectly fine.
Yes, you can parallel them for higher current storage but a single battery has high current output - something like 60Amps continuous & 120Amps instantaneous output - treat them like car batteries - I've melted the tip of a screwdriver by accident with them & even jump started my car with 4 of them in series :)
A123 were the first to use the nano particle technology which confers such a high surface area to the cathode? (or anode, I never remember which) which accounts for the very low internal impedance & current capabilities. Other manufacturers now use this same technique.
I'm not sure what you mean by decouple them - before & after what?
Do uou bypass them with capacitors at the output? Like using a 0.01u npo plus larger values?
I only use local bypass caps at the pins of ICs - I found that the use of electro caps across battery poles (as most say are required) are detrimental to the SQ when used with these types of batteries
They can also be continuously trickled charged even when playing so no need to turn off!If you're continuously trickle charging the battery, aren't you defeating the purpose of using the battery to some extent in the first place? You now have a potentially noisy trickle charger on the circuit you're trying to supply with "clean power". Of course the battery is acting as a huge filter but since you've gone full circle by putting the battery concept back on the AC mains (thru the trickle charger), you may as well just build a good power supply and skip the battery idea. No? I'm not following the logic.
Edits: 11/21/15 11/21/15 11/21/15
Yes, it would seem to be counter-intuitive but by trickle charging the battery you prevent 99% of any noise from the mains getting through & still retain the SQ that you have if running solely from battery. Try it & see if you can hear any difference with/without charger connected!
With a decent regulated power supply similar to what you might have used without the battery.
The battery does act as a giant capacitor of almost unlimited capacity and a vanishing low ESR - using the A123 26650.
What ever you do... DON'T FORGET TO WEAR YOUR FORUM APPROVED BATTERY USING AUDIOPHILE PROTECTIVE SUIT!!!
Yes, Rick, I've been doing it this way for 4 years or more on my audio devices
With the Regen setup, the DXD files from 2L sound much beter, with height, width and depth all in a more harmonious order and with a larger sound stage!
My feeling about the Regen are the same as yours. I am happy with it's improvement of sound quality.
Somewhat surprising as others have reported little or no improvement even with Regen attached to high-end PS when hooked up to 'dedicated' audio PC's/high end usb3.0 PCIE cards/etc.
Mine is on order and shipping in December, or so they say.
It will have its hands full cleaning up my MacBook Air with cheap 10 meter USB cable. =:-0
You do not need that much.
The fellows at TIR NA AUDIO are bypassing the internal reg and going straight to the circuit with the ubiquitous A123 26650 (3.3 volts) and reporting satisfying results.
BTW, the LiFePO4 battery is also being trickle charged at the same time as the Regen is running off that battery - so no need to worry about battery running out.
Just so everyone realises that these batteries aren't hassle to use - I have been using this arrangement for about 4 years now on my DACs & audio devices - I believe I was the first to do this, trickle charge battery while also powering device from battery - it acts like a very large capacitor, reducing 99% of any noise that might be on the charging circuit
Yes, Rick it was me that powered the Regen directly from LiFePo4 battery, bypassing the TI reg. All who heard it registered a significant improvement over a Regen powered by LPS or even battery (using the TI reg)
John Swenson says that best SQ is obtained by leaving the dac on and playing constantly, did you do this for these comparisons ?
http://mqnplayer.blogspot.co.uk/
dac is on constantly.
no idea what he means by playing constantly; I do it for long periods anyway
Nice review Fred especially since I believe you were skeptical at first. I have been trying to find a Zotac CI320 ever since you lauded it a few months back. I really want one with an Esata output connection. Does yours have one?
They have Esata. I also use one as a mini silent NAS.
I have just bought another barebone as spare. Don't particularly like the UEFI configuration in the free Bing version as this has so far prevented recovery from an image.
http://www.amazon.com/ZOTAC-Passive-Cooling-Barebones-ZBOX-CI320NANO-U/dp/B00VFLSIHA/ref=sr_1_1/189-7407922-9754940?ie=UTF8&qid=1447855410&sr=8-1&keywords=zotac+CI320&pebp=1447855413621&perid=0JAKTRQ2117G85TE06BK
seems a bargain
I was not sceptical but commented on the silly solid mounting arrangement and on the voltage regulator which was hailed as 'expensive and best' but which is not. I still would not use the sold adapter without support as it is clearly too heavy to hang from a usb connector. The voltage input socket is also on the wrong side so that a long 2.5mm connector poses a problem.
The CI320 can be bought off the shelf and I believe that there are variant models. Last time I looked, it was available on Amazon.com and even Walmart. If you have an operating system, don't buy the Bing model and this can be a hassle to restore. It also uses the UEFI system.
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