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In Reply to: RE: Anyone had success with the micro PCs for streaming server? posted by kenzo on September 18, 2015 at 21:28:22
Ken,
First off, please do not buy a MAC. It is actually just not a good idea. Many with sense have moved on... Or for that matter, maybe not even an Intel NUC as I think there are some better choices.
When you say streaming server, do you mean a serious audiophile PC streaming your music from a NAS, or more for streaming from online music services, or both? If you are thinking online only, then sound quality takes a backseat and almost anything will work. If your are more serious, then the choice matters more.
For best sound I have mostly stayed away from NUC type PCs due to IMO the importance of using better USB i.e. PPA, JPlay card etc... But IMO the availability of the Regen has opened up the field to using NUCs type PCs.
I have not tested this yet but I would recommend looking at the ASRock Beebox n3150b as an excellent candidate for a serious streaming server. It has 4 physical cores, which I like as I use software to move programs to different cores It also has dual channel memory which is also a good idea IMO.
It is fanless, can use an Msata SSD and also has room for a 2.5" drive. Used a 12V supply so can easily be run on a linear supply or a battery. From what I see it really might make a killer streamer. BTW it costs about $150... :)
Good luck
Bob
Follow Ups:
Ken,
A small correction. The Asrock model I mentioned actually has a fan, the lower power cpu models do not. Looks like Zotac and Minx will have a fanless quad core N3150 mini PC.
Regards
Bob
hi bob,
I am interested in highest quality streaming from local storage. I currently subscribe to TIDAL which can stream loss-less but when I do that I almost always record and save to local while streaming.
I was leaning towards NUC but when the cost gets close to $400+, might as well buy a laptop.
I guess I will be looking most closely at the processor boards but it seems things are in rapid flux in that area and no clear winner for audiophile streaming server has emerged.
Due to time constraints, although I am a programmer by profession I don't want to be doing much experimenting in terms of software for the solution. Between the job, the family, and the 3+ hour commute every day, I am looking for a fairly direct path to a working solution so I can free my home laptop up for other tasks.
ken
Hi Ken,
It is true things are changing but that does not necessarily mean there will be one or some definitive hardware solution as a music server, there can be many good solutions.
As far as a complete system, what I run is Jplay streamer and I can recommend that you try it, and it is in my opinion the best sounding solution available. I run it on Windows server 2012 would audiophile Optimizer, and would also recommend this combination.
As far as using a laptop, unless you really want to use a laptop for something else I would prefer a headless solution as I think ultimately they will provide you with a lower noise device. Once the system is set up and configured it becomes an appliance, pushbutton on, remote control with another computer a tablet, pushbutton off.
People have reported that Windows 10 also works very well and sounds good, and Phil will hopefully be making a version of audiophile Optimizer for it.
Regards
Bob
- In our view JPlay is an unnecessary layer of processing. We like, use and endorse Windows players like J River Media Center and Foobar. We like them because they give the user control over the sound processing. With these players we can turn on as little or as many features as we need. More importantly, we understand what is going on within the player. JPlay works in magic ways, and therefore we prefer to stay away from it.
JPlay is a hoax
Can we now assume that Exasound is in bed with J River and subscribes to the gasbag forum "bits are bits" religion?
Is this really so? If it is, I guess Exasound belongs on my "do not buy list" along with JRiver.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Their long passage on why KS should not be used contains no comment on it, just why ASIO should be used.
I personally prefer KS on most players and systems.
exaSound is a well respected engineering driven DAC manufacturer. They also write their own ASIO drivers (no simple task). I don't think there's a conspiracy between JRiver and exaSound but they apparently think JPlay is just undocumented "magic" not to be trusted.Who would you trust?
During the past couple of weeks we received a number of requests to "fix" our 64bit Windows ASIO drivers for use with the JPLAY audio player for Windows. We were surprised because older versions of JPlay worked fine with the exaSound ASIO drivers. We did the necessary troubleshooting and debugging, and we can confidently say that there is nothing wrong with our drivers.
Edits: 09/21/15 09/21/15
What I read (or thought I read) implied that exaSound might be a purely engineering driven DAC manufacturer. I don't consider this a good sign. I prefer manufacturers who are driven by how their products sound, since that is how I am going to use them. Obviously, to successfully produce cost effective, reliable gear, they also have to have good engineering.Also, it strikes me as a questionably ethical business practice to provide a conduit for "hoax" accusations about products made by another companies. This might be appropriate, were there proof that the product in question was a hoax. However, such proof would amount to a claim that "bits are just bits" at least with the exaSound products. I haven't seen them make that claim, and I would tend to doubt it were they to make it.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Edits: 09/22/15
which seems to me to imply some sort way too much permanence to a software product.
A DAC manufacturer shouldn't be involved in a software war: who knows if either company is going to be around in 5 years.
In the case of ExaSound, the only reason to comment is if they're building a transport.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Hi Tony,
What is even more ridiculous is that they were perfectly happy with all the Jplay customers that used their DAC prior to the new improved Jplay version which actually showed a bug in the driver. Now all of a sudden Jplay is no good anymore, comical actually.
Instead of fixing the driver they insist that KS is bad and that they are only ones that know what they are doing. Kind of funny Jplay works with every other DAC on the market, is there a problem with this picture???
Even worse as you read their little blog you see the comment that because there DAC buffers the packets the transport does not matter. But as you read further down they recommend JRiver and foobar and mentioned that you can change the settings easily in those applications. LOL… Wait a second just a minute ago they mention that there DAC is immune to differences in transports, so why would changing settings matter???
Overall it was pretty stupid... it just shows a lazy manufacturer who does not want to fix the driver and could care less about the customers. And in turn it shows the character of the individual who needed to search the Internet for negativity and bring it up here as a veiled personal attack and to try and derail a conversation.
Regards
Bob
More clueless BS... At least you are consistent.
Edits: 09/21/15
I didn't write it.... I simply referenced it.
""I didn't write it.... I simply referenced it.""
LOL So you had nothing real, useful, worthwhile or enlightening to contribute, so you search the web for some meaninglessness BS to crap on a thread.
As I said... You are consistent... Except you forgot the pictures this time... Are you actually a 12 year old mascaraing as an adult???
I'll miss ya...
For what, trying to talk about audio???
We were talking about audio I express my personal opinions of what I use to someone who expressed interest in setting up a advanced system. Here comes the revisionist troll making what is a personal attack, clearly pretty obvious.
It was nothing to do with what we were discussing, just a search of the Internet to find some negative clueless comment from a manufacturer who obviously cannot write a proper driver. All it was was an attack to try to derail a thread and stifle conversation, pretty typical.
Sorry if I was truthful. It is like doctors talking about advanced medicine, and someone keeps jumping in with leeches, we must still use leeches to treat illness, they are the only cure. And of course following up with all the pretty pictures of leeches.
After a while it gets pretty frustrating, and that is why many people have stopped posting here. It is the constant baiting, trolling and derailing of any conversation that might be something new or better or more modern. It gets tiring after a while.
Just to analyze the used-car salesman tactics a bit more… The defense of the search for the negative link was from an "engineering based DAC manufacturer" okay so all the other DAC manufacturers are not engineers…
They must be cooks or plumbers… They have no engineering background right, just the one that made a negative comment about a very popular piece of software that thousands of happy listeners use every day with every DAC imaginable.
Funny...Before the improved new version of Jplay you did not see that manufacturer say a word because they had many happy customers happily using Jplay. But now that there is a problem with a driver instead of fixing the problem they blame the software. Really, does that make a lot of sense…
There isn't a problem with the exaSound driver.The problems occurred AFTER JPlay made changes to THEIR software. Since this is the case, I'd say it's up to JPlay to fix their software.
During the past couple of weeks we received a number of requests to "fix" our 64bit Windows ASIO drivers for use with the JPLAY audio player for Windows. We were surprised because older versions of JPlay worked fine with the exaSound ASIO drivers. We did the necessary troubleshooting and debugging, and we can confidently say that there is nothing wrong with our drivers.
Besides, exaSound's DACs and drivers work fine with a number of other popular players. Since JPlay 'broke compatibility' it's up to them to fix their problem, not exaSound.
Edits: 09/22/15
.
Please educate yourself about the subject before commenting on the subject.
Until then it is best just to laugh...
A driver is an interface... hence... you do not design to fit an interface.
- A driver that worked perfectly fine on the exaSound DAC with JPlay until JPlay updated their software. A driver that adheres to industry standards that also works fine on the exaSound DAC with a multitude of other players (not just JRiver).
The onus is clearly on JPlay to fix their software, not for exaSound to fix their driver.
It's not that complicated unless one lets charged emotions cloud reasonable thinking.
The substance here can be uncovered only by detailed investigation with reference to source code and specifications, plus hands on debugging. Absent this information, it is a "finger pointing" exercise as to who is correct, and pointless to identify one party as the "tail" and the other as the "dog" or, alternatively, one product as the "engine" and the other as the "clutch". I am not one to accept claims that a given product "adheres to industry standards". The fact that it worked fine with a previous version of JPlay has nothing to do with the issue of who is right and who is wrong. (It is even possible that the "industry standard" could be wrong, i.e. ambiguous, and both devices might "adhere" to the standard while not interoperating. It could even be that the operating system is "wrong".)Exasound has every right to say that they do not support their hardware with JPlay. There is nothing wrong with this, and this would be true even if their products interoperated perfectly. To do so, or not to do so is their business decision. It is also JPlay's right to support or not support Exasound products, again a business decision. In both cases the situation might be complicated by prior marketing claims, but we've heard nothing about these.
However, none of this has anything to do with whether it was proper for Exasound to call JPlay a "hoax". Doing this, or supporting such accusations made by others (JRiver) is more than sufficient grounds for me to put them on my "do not buy list" for conducting business in an improper fashion. It's not as if there aren't alternative vendors that I could choose, were I in the market for a new DAC.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Edits: 09/24/15
"""However, none of this has anything to do with whether it was proper for Exasound to call JPlay a "hoax". Doing this, or supporting such accusations made by others (JRiver) is more than sufficient grounds for me to put them on my "do not buy list" for conducting business in an improper fashion. It's not as if there aren't alternative vendors that I could choose, were I in the market for a new DAC."""
Very true...
Cannot wast anymore time with such foolishness.
Absolutely... Engine manufactures must design an engine to suite a clutch..
Foolishness indeed.
Cannot wast anymore time with such foolishness.
Lacking a substantive response from you, I would have to agree.
LOL So you had nothing real, useful, worthwhile or enlightening to contribute, so you search the web for some meaninglessness BS to crap on a thread.You may see it as BS but others will see it as a perfectly valid contribution to this thread, not based on my opinion, but that of a highly respected engineering driven DAC designer.
As I said... You are consistent... Except you forgot the pictures this time... Are you actually a 12 year old mascaraing as an adult???
Why do people resort to off topic personal attacks instead of peaceful civil conversation? Why not try discrediting exaSound and what they have to say about JPlay instead of going after me?
Edits: 09/22/15 09/22/15
""Why do people resort to off topic personal attacks instead of peaceful civil conversation? Why not try discrediting exaSound and what they have to say about JPlay instead of going after me?""
You need to ask yourself why you do what you do and posts such trolling devices baiting comments to try to derail every thread that does not go your way.
We understand that you enjoy being in a little box of zero change or positive modern thinking that's fine. But not everybody thinks the earth is flat and some people enjoy talking about different things. Do you have to derail every conversation with negativity…
Please explain the point of searching the Internet as you did to post what you did about the broken ExaSound driver? Do you have an ExaSound Dac? Do I have one? Does the original poster have one? Does anyone in the thread have one, discuss one, asked a question about one,… No obviously not it was just for you to derail a conversation.
It was a personal attack because I mentioned that I use Jplay just like many thousands of other people, and are happy listening to music every day. All you want to do is just stifle positive conversation and derail threads.
All I said since the original poster was interested in building a good sounding system, is that he should give it a try and I expressed my personal honest experiences.
You did not do that, you just tried to derail another thread which is what you do very well... you seem to have a great deal of practice.
This place is not enjoyable and it's pretty clear to most people with common sense why. It will be nice if you could control yourself and stick to the topics that you have some personal experience with and not continuously troll and bait people.
You are currently making this place VERY unpleasant.
You obviously have an axe to grind.
I hope Chris will be checking in soon.
""axe to grind.""
Absolutely... It is... trying to talk about computer audio... That is the agenda... That is what people want to do here.
This is the second time today you threatened me today...
Do you have any audio contributions???
Get off your high horse about 'baiting comments' and personal attacks.From the top:
First off, please do not buy a MAC. It is actually just not a good idea. Many with sense have moved on... "
Grow a thicker skin or look in the mirror.
Edits: 09/22/15
First off, please do not buy a MAC. It is actually just not a good idea. Many with sense have moved on...Do you still feel threatened by the Evil Mac? I find it quite odd seeing you beg Kenzo not to buy a MAC when he already stated, "I'm not really interested in apple products- never liked the "closed" architecture..."
Ah, the power of the Evil Mac! Look away, look away. They're so pretty you might just want one. You know you do. Don't look. ;-)
Edits: 09/21/15 09/21/15
I use an IMac/Yosemite.
What do you think about the quality of the USB Ports?
I've seen Mac trashed for USB, noise , whatever.
I usually take comments on Noise Floor, and how low it can go,
withy a grain of salt.
It must be pretty high for it to be repeatedly lowered by whatever tweak/new product.
"Substantially lowered the Noise Floor" come up all the time.
Are PCs inherently better for audio than Mac?
""Are PCs inherently better for audio than Mac?""
Of course you received the typical nonsense answer below but actually there is more to the story.On a whole looking at it as a big picture, PCs are not inherently better than Macs this can be a generalized answer. An off-the-shelf PC is not any better than off-the-shelf Mac, in fact there might be a possibility that the Mac would be better. As a turnkey system with some of the good applications Macs are not bad. There is more to the story though.
When you come to building something specialized for high-level audio playback you are limited with a Mac. You can do much more with a PC, server motherboards, Xeon processors, fanless cases, ECC memory, better quality USB adapters, better network cards either ethernet or fiber, EMI RFI reduction, specialized processor and memory and software settings… The list goes on. These cannot be accomplished on a Mac. Also in my opinion the software applications that are available for PCs just sound better, I have done both MAC and PC and some other people and have reached similar conclusions.
Of course you get an answer from someone who has not done these things and just loves to share their opinions. All well and good but sometimes hands-on experience can go much further than just opinions or speculations.
Edits: 09/21/15
.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Thank you...
"What do you think about the quality of the USB Ports? I've seen Mac trashed for USB, noise, whatever."
USB noise on the Mac that no one here has actually measured, nor made a direct correlation to audio quality, right? The USB ports are fine but if you have doubts just try one of the many add-on tweaks.
"I usually take comments on Noise Floor, and how low it can go, with a grain of salt."
As you should. But you can always experiment for yourself to see if you hear a difference and whether it is worthwhile.
It must be pretty high for it to be repeatedly lowered by whatever tweak/new product. "Substantially lowered the Noise Floor" come up all the time.
It's not 'pretty high' at the output of your DAC or system, is it? Do you hear it? Reviewers have to say SOMETHING about EVERYTHING they review and noise floor is an easy target I suppose. Blacker blacks and the like.
You can always try one of those add-ons and listen for yourself. I didn't hear a substantially lowered noise floor on my Mac + DAC combo when I tried the USB REGEN, but then again I never felt that the noise floor was an issue to begin with. I did not hear blacker blacks or a lowered noise floor.
Are PCs inherently better for audio than Mac? I've seen Mac trashed for USB, noise, whatever.
Of course not. It's purely a religious war with 'haters' on each side. I see Mac trashed for all sorts of things. It goes beyond Mac vs PC. Some hate computers completely and insist that dedicated streamer appliances rule the earth. If you're enjoying your setup and not fretting over it all day every day, that's what counts. ;-)
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