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...while you wait for a fix. You're rarely caught in this unpleasant situation with a general purpose computer.
I had a Sony for a couple weeks before I returned it. It sounded fine, very good in fact, but managing it's content seemed a bit contorted to me. It is what it is, like it or not.
If we find that to be the case with our general purpose computers set up as music servers, we simply load and try different software.
Similarly if your favorite music player vendor botches a software update, you just delete it and load another player from a different vendor.
Read the sorry Sony thread linked below.
Follow Ups:
Kinda like watching the Burbs. Feldmans character just watched from the veranda as the neighborhood goes into chaos. Classic.
Also, Abe, I totally get what your saying. Relax and enjoy your Tannoy's.
Can I be Brother Theodore? He's my alter ego.
---------------------------------------------------
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
It's the web. You can be almost anything you desire.
Yes, there is an argument that using a general purpose computer for audio playback gives you more options. But I think a lot of computer audio users are strongly attached to their playback chain of choice and when it breaks they're not going to be happy about switching to some other software. Likewise if a person's music player appliance breaks they're not going to be happy but usually have something else to play music they can fall back on.
A more important point in my opinion is that the maintenance burden of an internet connected general purpose computer is considerably higher than any media playback device I've owned, and the overall reliability of a general purpose computer can be a fair bit lower. I think if we were able to compare the number of people affected by a botched upgrade like the one you posted to the number of people affected by operating system updates gone awry, viruses and malware, and other common computer problems - the latter would but much higher.
Hi Dave,
Everything you say makes sense and I agree. The problem here is that is difficult to have an intelligent discussion because of a couple people who do not really understand what's going on with computer audio. They cannot comprehend that people can also use what may start out as a standard computer (if there is such a word because computers can come in many shapes and forms) as a streaming audio device.
The one thing that I may take a bit of exception with is the fact you mentioned about the Internet connection viruses, updates etc. My computers are no different from the dedicated streamers that are being foisted on us by the audio manufacturers. I push the button to turn it on use a tablet or similar device to control it, and push a button to turn it off, what is the difference? There is no antivirus software, or for that matter any ancillary software on the system. It runs in core mode, which is like DOS and it is hard to imagine a less intrusive operating system. It is just that a couple of people here have actually little knowledge and as is often the case, the less informed someone is the more noise they make.
Regards
Bob
It would be fascinating to know who the "couple of people" you think are making the noise. (LOL)
Does anyone who disagrees with you mean that they are ignorant and disruptive, making it not possible to have a "good discussion?" Are you so insecure in your solution that you have to go out of your way to label people who compare & use several different solutions, "precious streamer guys?" Is there a party-line that some people need to be forced to toe?Considering the two people who I think that you're referring to, both are running computer based solutions, and are, in fact, more familiar with several different types of solutions than you are: neither of these two people START contentious threads that have as their essence, criticizing a solution that they themselves employ.
You're starting all of the "noise" with your claims and criticisms of high end audio manufacturers, - who are much better at the most important aspects of producing higher performing audio than traditional commercial, multi-purpose computers. (This is proven out historically, & presently, long before their ever was digital file playback, - with CD players, amplifiers, speakers, etc). But you won't know, because you won't try, (as is the case with other naysayers who try to assert things like NAD amps sound the same as LAMMs). But unfortunately, that doesn't stop you from criticizing.""My computers are no different from the dedicated streamers that are being foisted on us by the audio manufacturers.""
That has been PROVEN, - without a doubt, - to be 100% false. And, especially, - with only about 6 of these devices out there: they are hardly "foisted" by audio manufacturers. Wavelength, - who brought us the USB solution, is an Audio designer-manufacturer. Logitech is not an audio manufacturer.
When it is really difficult to have a good discussion is when someone with an anti-high performance audio agendae comes on an high performance audio website and is uninformed about the components involved in high performing audio devices. (Hint: the power supply is far more important than any OS and/or digital file playback software).The irony of your accusations is not lost considering your lack of experience: experience being the most critical aspect of having a "good discussion." For with experience comes the realization that good sound can be achieved with either approach.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 07/23/15
This is like groundhog day. These folks enjoy wasting time getting in circular arguments and they seek to discredit file playback set ups they have NEVER tried. One brings in a new DAC every two weeks which obviously means their is something off, and they are seeking to correct it at the DAC end, a classic tail chasing paradigm.
You are all over the place and making little sense. What does this have to do with Wavelength or Logitech? NAD vs Lamm? I am not criticizing high-end manufacturers at all. It is the few people who do not really understand what is going on here. Maybe you need to do some reading on the CA, JPlay or Tri Na HiFi forums. Staying here only you are learning very little.
repeated for emphasis,.....
You don't really have enough experience & maturity to understand that your way is not the only way.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
"You don't really have enough experience & maturity to understand that your way is not the only way."
Oh boy... Please stop talking out of your....
Do your self a favor, stop writing, and listen.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Actually have... Why are you screaming??? Are you really that immature.smh...
You are all over the place and making little sense.
Not only that, it gets a little rough around here when they tag team against you. ;-)
.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
.... Windows users in general (often), and "streamers" (looks like daily now, too), the only proper solution is the Apple masterpiece, THE ultimate music-making machine.I'm wondering if there's another single person in this forum, stupid enough to believe that - despite the mantra being so persistent.
PS: I sincerely hope Chris, the moderator, enjoys the "smooth sailing" - with a rambunctious 500 Lb gorilla on board.
Edits: 07/24/15
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
If it makes everyone involved happy....
It's pretty telling when someone goes out of their way to criticize you when they are responding to a third person relating their experiences.
Or, whenever one makes a mistake, apologizes after its pointed out: but still gets "piled on" with criticism. That shows no class, and it becomes clear that anything you say, (even if you agree), is seen as a threat that must be attacked.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
LOL!!!
you get some experience and knowledge with computer audio and traditional high end playback. Not sure if I'd hold out any hope that you'd come into line with what, (largely), most others have realized, - that good sound can happen throughout several transport types.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I know much more about computers, audio, and possibly many other things than you will even know!
You have not commented on my SET 45 amp and Bose 901s yet... You are really an audio expert...
Bose 901s-Julian Hirsch made these babies famous. Since we are going down memory lane, how about the Rectilinear III speakers.Julian felt that these were some of the most natural sounding speakers he ever heard.
I think they sold for $279.
Edits: 07/24/15
Hi Steve,
I remember them well. And from the boogie down Bronx. :) The good old days...
Regards
Bob
your posts have never reflected that you know much of anything.....
Namely, comparitive listening. Have you even heard the ubiquitous SBT?
Your highest form of knowledge, is your number of various listening experiences, in both traditional audio and digital file playback.
If you happen to know so much, why are you so afraid to cite even a smal iota of those experiences? Why are your opinions so disparate from most others here?
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Exactly!! All we see is posts about how much knowledge he has but I can't remember a single enlightening post, not single instance of describing experiences of system building. Just a lot of name calling and foot stomping lol.
Amen to that. But then again I can't be bothered with know it all, smug posters who don't post their systems.
Have posted my system many times. Do you really think you have a better audio system, or are a better listener than someone else...
Nonsense. It is obvious to anyone here you have a severe inferiority complex.
My system is no better or worse than one else's.
Posting one's system is simply an expected courtesy and it allows others to get a picture of your tastes and preferences.
I'm no better a listener than anyone else, I just enjoy music immensley, not playing wack a mole with my 'puter.
We can only guess what you have been wacking...
"inferiority complex." You are trippin... LOL
What is wrong with a SET 45 amp and Bose 901s?
Edits: 07/23/15
Don't quit your day job, although it is highly doubtful you have one.
Nothing is wrong with those things. Stop being a child.
Maybe you are actually a child. I have been doing this probably before you were born but it seems that neither you nor your buddy got the joke, and you really know much less about audio than you think.
The combination I posted would not even make any sound let alone be an audiophile system. A 1 1/2 watt single ended 45 amplifier would not even make a hiss powering Bose 901s!
I think this is actually hilarious that you did not realize that this is an impossible system.
Bose 901s one of the largest selling speakers in history, and one of the most controversial need and an inordinate amount of power. You can hook them to the third rail of the subway and it would not be enough power for them. They are also probably one of the worst sounding speakers in a home environment that were ever made, this is audio history that I hope everybody knows.
They are diffuse sounding, pretty much a total mess but just about everyone that ever heard them in the showroom walked out with a pair because of the way they were demonstrated. High-powered amps like a Phase Linear 400s or 700s which came out around the same time, and an audio demo room with heavy carpet on the walls, floor and ceiling and filled with equipment made these speakers sound like the most amazing things God ever created. Everyone who heard them walked out with a pair, but when they got them home to their apartments with wood floors and windows, no reflective corners, and a 40 watt receivers, they began to cry realizing the mistake they made.
I actually met Dr. Bose many many years ago and told him about the experiences people I knew had with 901s. It was an interesting conversation to say the least. I guess I am lucky I did not get sued... lol...
Can you and you friend just please cool it. You might not really know as much as you think... I see you have AR D150s... I actually heard the first AR D76s in NYC in Lyric back room with Mike K. Have you ever been there?
I have close to a 40 year collection of tubes, electronics and speakers I've been enjoying this hobby since my teens. I too much stuff the list, but now try to keep my system is pretty simple.MiniMax+ Dexa discrete op-amps, Aune S16 a real sleeper" better that a few $3,000 DACS I have heard, or a tricked out Pacific Valve NOS tube DAC into a LIghtspeed attenuator. I was listening to Yamaha and NS1000 for a while driven by Hypex amps. I recently hooked up a pair of Celestion SL600s for a change.
I have heard the very expensive amps that your partner in streamers owns compared to the Hypex amps and it was no contest.
I should have known that was red meat hanging! I read it and did not want to get involved. LOL
A free reaming lost.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
You could have said something. :)
And some people feel they are audio experts. lol And then on top of that the are real nasty...
I could not imagine owning a $15,000 pair of speakers with a 6 1/2 inch woofer and then using a bass boosting equalizer. Just does not feel right. Has to add distortion.
I am not even a real big sub-woofer fan. I still own a pair of Janis subs, very low distortion (and one of the only woofers that can sound good with Quads), but don't bother with them much.
This can be a pretty funny place though. :)
Nobody got your attempt at baiting..your joke because it was so lame and quite frankly no one cares.
I honestly can't remember where anyone here represented them selves as authority.
But..now we have a little substance..that was not so hard was it Bobsie??
I will say with sincerity that I appreciate your post. I heard the MiniMax and it as an excellent sounding DAC. You did not seem to believe me what I said I am non judgmental on systems. Dollars spent mean nothing and have no correlation to musical enjoyment.
As much as you say we need to cool it, you should also consider being less defensive and negative towards products you have not heard.
"As much as you say we need to cool it, you should also consider being less defensive and negative towards products you have not heard."
I am not being defensive or negative, and have heard some of what we are discussing... But more so, a through understand of the technology helps.
Not everyone has this understanding.
Of course understanding of the technology helps, but ultimately the ears are what matter most.
The reason much of the CA sector of high end audio is seen as a lunatic fringe is due to the heavy reliance on measurements and "understanding the technology".
What makes your WAV, AIFF, FLAC, ALAC or whatever files sound like real music and make you forget about DACs, computers, streamers etc is what matters. The ear is the ultimate fine tuning instrument.
"The reason much of the CA sector of high end audio is seen as a lunatic fringe is due to the heavy reliance on measurements and "understanding the technology"."
Not really where I hang out. Start reading CA, Jplay forums etc... Zero talk of measurements.
"What makes your WAV, AIFF, FLAC, ALAC or whatever files sound like real music and make you forget about DACs, computers, streamers etc is what matters. The ear is the ultimate fine tuning instrument."
Very true... Always has been... Always will..
instead of trolling about something you read, - which imparts almost no knowledge: especially compared to listening.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Everyone who disagrees with you is a troll.. Maybe find a new hobby...
Bob,
I agree that what you have is a single purpose computer optimized as an audio transport, basically a DIY alternative to a Bryston BDP or Aurender. And as such, the maintenance argument I made doesn't really apply.
Based on his prior posts and setup, I took Abe literally when he said "general purpose computer".
Dave
Not you at all. It is very hard to have a normal serious discussion here on certain subjects due to the lack of comprehension by the streamer gang.
I am still waiting for one to give me some good advice regarding my Bose 901s powered by a SET 45 amp. He claims to much more knowledgeable than me, so I look forward to his insight.
.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Trust me... I have so much more experience than you... It is funny, you are actually pretty embarrassing.
No Thanks, - I can't trust anyone who neither produces evidence, or any cogent argument: then makes false assertions calling things "the same" when a simple photograph proves otherwise.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Evidence??? photograph proof??? false assertions??? Of what??? Did you fall and hit you head? What in the world are you talking about??? LOL This actually is an asylum...
It wasn't you who ever claimed the Bryston BPD mainboard, and the Aries mainboards where the same as PC mainboards.. no...LOL...
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 07/23/15
All hardware will eventually break or have other issues but...
My post is about a software update that crippled the Sony HAP-Z1ES 'appliance' which put the appliance users at the mercy of Sony for a fix. Three weeks in this case according to some reports.
I think if we were able to compare the number of people affected by a botched upgrade like the one you posted to the number of people affected by operating system updates gone awry, viruses and malware, and other common computer problems - the latter would but much higher.
That's a possibility but the savvy computer user can recover on his own and rather quickly w/o being at the mercy of an appliance vendor like Sony for a software fix. This holds true for most such appliances that do not give the user access to the inner workings under the hood so to speak.
As for OS updates gone awry, you don't update your production system (main music server) without first having a tested and proven way to revert back to a previous state. A complete bootable backup works for me. If an OS update or player software upgrade cripples my system, I simply boot off the backup and I'm up and running again in 1-minute, not three weeks.
As for viruses and malware, you don't use the music server in a way that will allow viruses and malware to infest the system. If you do, there are firewalls and scanners for malware and viruses.
So the computer might require a little more knowledge to operate and maintain but you're not left with a crippled or bricked player while you wait and hope that the vendor fixes a software problem for you.
Yes, there are trade-offs:
- The simplicity of an appliance with the downside of being dependent on the appliance maker to fix it when a problem arises or...
- A general purpose computer that puts a lot more control in the user's hands that allows him to recover quickly.
When your music appliance breaks you're at the mercy of others... ...while you wait for a fix.
I'm not sure why some inmates went ape crazy over my comment above. It's factual and not that hard to understand.
The "crippling" in this case was inability to access Gracenote for metadata. This sort of thing happens with application software as well.
Just this month iTunes 12.2 came out and mangled users' libraries. When Apple software has a bug that screws up your music library, which is in a proprietary iTunes database, you are at the mercy of Apple waiting for a fix, are you not?
Unless you can revert to an older iTunes version by restoring your root volume from a backup, and also restore your iTunes library from a backup.
But then again, the HAP-Z1ES supports backing up and restoring your music library too.
It is theoretically possible that a bad firmware update could brick your HAP-Z1ES or similar device and render it unable to do a network update, necessitating a repair trip, whereas a computer can usually be restored from "bare metal". So you have a point there. But I think that is a very rare occurrence.
This sort of thing happens with application software as well.
True. But the point is, with a general purpose computer set up as a music server, you are not tied to a specific application. For example, no one needs to run iTunes on a Mac. Perhaps that was true a decade ago but today we have several free and paid-for music players to choose from. So we're not locked in to a vendor for a fix.
The mangling of user's iTunes libraries only occurred in very specific use cases which I for one would never encounter. But again, no one is forcing us to use iTunes at all.
In the case of a turnkey audio appliance you ARE forced to use whatever software the appliance maker provides and you ARE forced to wait for them to fix it when it breaks.
The choice really comes down to simplicity of operation for those who do not understand computers or do not want to deal with them -VS- flexibility. And part of that flexibility means not having to wait three weeks (or whatever) for a vendor provided fix.
No one is arguing which is 'right' and which is 'wrong', only pointing out the major differences in approach.
No it wasn't: although you tried to make it seem that way after you post was exposed as a Straw Man and troll."When your music appliance breaks you're at the mercy of others.""
No one went "ape-crazy" over anything. Pointing out that you're wrong isn't Ape crazy. And, just like anything else, - it's only very few people who are capable of modifying/repairing their "computer-turned" streamer anyway. No one is going to solder traces on a mainboard, no one is going to repair a broken linear power supply, no one is going circumvent a shite MAC USB bus. Even pulling an HD and installing a SSD drive is something an audiophile isn't going to do.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 07/23/15
If you didn't understand the post and the thread I linked to, you make a good case for being the ideal candidate as a 'music appliance' operator.
You wrote what you wrote, - if you meant something else, - say so.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
If everyone but you understood my post, what's your beef?
Watch what you say... There are vegetarians here...
you're insecure with your solution, so you're grasping at straws to keep up your delusions....
This unreasonable "selling" is unfortunate in that you do have experience, and do try other solutions....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Interesting comment from a streamer fanboy who insists these are not 'computers' yet chest beats their superiority in a "Computer Audio" forum.
but it is good of you to concede& finally be calling network file players what they are.Again, - I own and run both, and have an open mind: the opposite of you: oddly.
Since I am getting better sound (for now) from my MAC mini, - why are you calling me a "streamer" fan boy?
And as always, - as your posts so indicate, - you know, - yet avoid saying so, - because that's where you LOSE the argument: that this is ALL ABOUT HARDWARE. High-End audio is all about hardware.....
Chop chop...
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 07/23/15 07/23/15
.
network appliance threads here if it weren't so dictated.
And of course, you knew this, - but decided to waste everyone's time, and Rod's HD space anyway...
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
When did you become so contentious? I remember a much more laid back individual about 10 years ago. I think you need a forum break.
Cut-Throat
It's not coming from him? After all, he started the thread contentiously criticizing your solution. (Then obfuscating by trying to assert that posts about your solution do not belong here).But, perhaps your point deserves some consideration. Perhaps there's a nicer way to "call him out," on what started as contentiousness.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 07/23/15
Most reasonable readers wouldn't see my original post as contentious at all. It's factual, backed by an example, not demeaning in any way, and a topic of conversation for computers and music appliances.
Except for a couple inmates who for whatever reason went ape crazy and lost their minds over it, I thought my post and responses by others were pretty civil and benign.
If you don't agree with my post, make a decent argument against it as others have. But please don't go around accusing me of being contentious or a troll just because you don't agree with what I said.
> "Most reasonable readers wouldn't see my original post as contentious at all. It's factual, backed by an example, not demeaning in any way, and a topic of conversation for computers and music appliances."
Abe, I saw the OP, and was about to respond to it when the screen came up, "post deleted by AbeC." I figured you had thought better of it and deleted it, because very few people like to dance on other peoples misery.
Then I saw it pop back up 30 mins later. I guess TL posted a response before the deletion finalized? Damn computers! Better luck next time.
A bigger man might have tried to reel it back in as best he could. Nope, you have buffalo'd all day. For two days in fact.
BTW, your original statement is a Truism. Like; if you save money everyday, and do it for many years, then one day you will have a lot of money. Wisdom for the ages don't you think?
You drive a BMW right? Then I'm sure you know what it's like to be at the mercy of the dealership's service dept.
Not trying to be too hard on you. There are many ways to save face.
----------------------------------------------------------
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
It's the threads like this that establish new friendships, and solidify the old ones.
Oh, and if you repeat "there was nothing contentious..." enough times, you may make yourself believe that it is indeed the truth. Don't think it works for others though, looking at the results of that innocent, non-contentious post.
I though this might be helpful...
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Yes I posted, deleted, reworded, then reposted. Nothing tricky or underhanded.
Have I said something untrue or 'contentious' to warrant the crazy behavior by a couple inmates who seem to have lost their minds?
If you read and understood my post, your BMW analogy doesn't quite fit, IMHO.
If you reposted then it's my mistake, and I'm sorry if I speculated otherwise.
> "Read the sorry Sony thread linked below."
Woeways us ES owners. We got it rough. Now back to the beautiful music.
I have no idea what "post and delete" is, or why anybody would want to do it, or what is to be gained by it. Have you ever heard of it?
----------------------------------------------------------------
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
There is a peculiar dance afforded by this particular and unique forum software, called "post and delete". After you have been around for a few years you will learn how to deal with this. Sometimes this is intentional on the part of the poster/deleter, sometimes not.
One other thing to be concerned about is that sometimes entire threads or sub-threads are 86'ed. This follows from the software capabilities provided to the moderators. Sometimes a highly creative and innocent post gets deleted as a result of "collateral damage" when the moderator felt he had to delete a particularly offensive post. (With experience, you will learn how and when to make your own personal archive of interesting threads where this is likely.)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Thanks for the heads up.
I'm new, but I have caught on to some of the more obvious tricky tricks. It's funny but strange that people pull them.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Fair enough.....
I just read through your OP. You're right, - you used the word "server" throughout...
You seemed to imply and extrapolate too far out beyond the one example of the Sony. (But, you definitely referred to Servers only, not network file players).
So it's my bad for extrapolating your point about servers to network file players.
Other folks, as well as I, did make the point that few people are going to touch the hardware, the manufacturer can send updates, and sometimes log into the unit remotely, and people do sometimes have a ton of trouble with their software on their PCs.
But largely the hardware was out of scope from what you said in the OP, my bad, sorry.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
In the context of audio play-back, what's the difference between a 'server' and a 'network file player'?
And is an 'appliance' something I really want to have in my audio chain?
.... between your you-know-what, and your elbow.
In the sense, that you wouldn't know any, as hard as you might try.
As i understand it...Music Servers are more all in one units. They're more likely to have a more typical multi-purpose mainboard, a hard drive, video card, as well as the playback software & (often) a display. Some of them have amps and DACs built in as well, - like the Sonos or Olive.
As opposed to network file players, which typically do not have hard drives, - (one can turn the Bryston & the Aurender N100 into servers by installing HDs, but they don't start out that way), - but have playback software that loads files from an external hard drive, a NAS drive via ethernet, or streams over the Internet.
The SBT, Sonore, Bel Canto, Sim Audio Mind, & Aurilic Aries are network file players.
One can also install LMS, (and of course other software), on a NAS drive connected, - (most typically), - via ethernet, - and that is sometimes also called a server: {but I would hazard that folks just refer to it as a NAS drive, cause more and more people are using NAS for multiple media}.
I don't see much of an issue with the above, and believe that is how those terms are widely used. A "server" stores the files, the player plays them.
I have always been critical of music servers & all-in-one devices, not only for the price, inflexibility in sharing out the files, but for the maintenance reasons that Abe cited in his OP.
I was confused at one point, (maybe by other posts than Abe's main one above), where I thought that the word "appliance" was used to mean a network file player and not a "server."
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 07/23/15 07/23/15 07/23/15
In other words...
As I have a SONOS and a Marantz NA-7004.
Neither of which I'd call more than mid-fi sources.
NA-7004 supports AirPlay, so there's that.
SONOS streams QOBUZ if you tell it you live in Europe.
In addition to the units being all-in-one, (again as it's termed Music Server), the internal HD is a requirement.
In IT Infrastructure I've heard the term "network appliance" used in reference to a NAS drive.
If Abe would've said Server instead of appliance in the title of his post, - I wouldn't have confused it with network file player like the Aries.
I can understand why some high end manufacturers would want to provide an easy all-in-one box that the customer can even ship their CDs to and have the manufacturer load them up for them and ship them back their 1 box solution. A solution like that has never been right for me. People who load all of their music onto their commercial computer's internal HD have built themselves a music server.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
and I don't, I'd likely prefer a stand-alone NAS drive, preferably with some form of RAID configuration that would assure everything is safe and even then, perhaps some off line backup system that only backs up the NAS whenever new stuff is loaded?
A one box solution makes no sense for me as most of my listening today is not even in the main system but streaming Lossless FLAC over the internet to headphones in my easy chair or in the office.
That and spinning vinyl.
Loading files is fairly quick and definitely easy.
I prefer Z1 to 5400 with or without mod.
If you don't know anything about "General purpose computer based -quality- audio" you'd be at the mercy of (e.g.) AA inmates!!!
I'm wondering if that's any better!?!? ;)
...I suspect whatever fails in your system anywhere within the audio chain you will be able to use something else to still enjoy your music?
I suspect many people are in the same boat. (just a guess)
We all head down different roads ....
Everything breaks, how we deal with it is the only difference.
Smile
Sox
Similarly, I have a replacement hard drive (along with five rotating offline backups) and an unopened backup streamer to fend off a visit by Murphy. :)
I buy at least 2 of my music motherboards and keep 2 system SSDs. I also keep 2 music SSD/HDDs
I don't use large SSDs for the OS and so cost is not significant.
A practical example.
Two months ago, I suddenly had trouble playing a few music files. A bit of experimenting suggested that the hard drive with the music files had developed some bad sectors. The drive had been in use for about 4 years so I decided to replace it rather than re-formatting and re-loading the drive. I ordered a 2.5" 2 TB drive from B&H and when it arrived a few days later, I restored the contents from a backup drive. (I always do an incremental backup after I add music files to my collection so i had a current backup.) I assigned the same drive letter to the new drive as the old drive had had.
JRiver started up and perfomed normally. No drama.
---
My music collection resides on my personal PC and on the dedicated music PC. Each of those PCs have been upgraded with larger hard drives over the years and then eventually replaced by newer generation hardware. Because I'm using standard PC components (and Windows), those changes have been quite routine.
Some of the complexities cited in this thread are optional. Take them on as you feel it is appropriate.
I follow the old wisdom about computers: Learn the essentials, make good choices up front, get things working smoothly and then leave the system alone. It will work the same way tomorrow as it does today.
my blog: http://carsmusicandnature.blogspot.com/
Well they fixed it.
21 days since the first report of the problem. I'll leave it to others to decide whether that's timely enough.
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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Please stop upsetting the streamer boys. They will get Pee Wee Herman after you...Simple devices for simple minds.
Edits: 07/22/15
I'm not, - I utilize a commercial computer in my main rig, - I've done so in different configs since 2003. (Although i don't have as much experience as some, I understand that i have ton more than you).
Are you really that insecure in your own methodology that you resist no opportunity to criticize another approach in ignorance: as you have not tried any other method but dogmatic conformity. That makes your posts cowardly...
I am fairly certain that if you modified/adjusted a Squeezebox with half the zeal that you regurgitate propaganda & the cult of personality "party-line," - you'd be getting better sound out of your Bose. How much mod work did you do on your speakers to make them something that they are not?
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
" (Although i don't have as much experience as some, I understand that i have ton more than you)."
Experience in what? This should be entertaining?
What propaganda and what party line is that?
Are you talking about the Bose 901s powered by the SET 45 tube amplifier?
This was the number 1 reason why I wanted to drop all computer audio.....sooner or later something breaks.
Bad thing about Linux is tweaking can set you off on a masochistic adventure in which a simple 2 minute fix can turn into days or weeks of pain.
Although I do have true appliances now ie...turn on and works, I still think from time to time to buy a pure music streamer.
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
What breaks? There are no moving parts on any of my computer audio components.
Usually nothing breaks until I/someone starts to play around with tweaking etc. In Linux you can update various things like the Kernel, ALSA etc. Depending on your success or failure it may or may not break your "Appliance" music server.
Then there are always issues of stability of the OS and installed software. Starting/Stopping/Re-booting may exacerbate any instabilities and all of a sudden a networked music directory won't mount or your music software won't start etc.
Basically it all boils down to the robustness of the software/operating system and the users ability not to play around so much with code as to break something.
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
Another aspect is the user's particular talent (karma) to tweak just those things most likely to reveal latent bugs. Working for many years in the computer industry, I found this an valuable skill. Among other things, it helped me evaluate the employees as to whether their designs and code actually worked or just appeared to work. (In a large corporation there are always poseurs who move on to another department before their failures can be attributed to them.)
So in general (unless I am having a particularly bad day) I am delighted when I find a new bug or when one of my attempted tweaks fails.
"You seek problems because you need their gifts." - Richard Bach
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Yes basically tweaking is in effect working out the bugs and making things more robust...provided what was broken can be fixed.Linux is a world of half baked and abandon projects, no doubt coders either get board or run into brick walls that they can not fix and just move on...
Linux as a whole has become more robust, so Linux based music servers are pretty rock solid.
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
Edits: 07/23/15
I had a Linux adventure a few months ago. The 1.5 TB disks on my Thecus NAS were getting old and full, so I took advantage of a sale to buy new 3 GB drives. These were supported by new firmware, so I upgraded that as well. Then I proceeded to upgrade the NAS by swapping drives, one at a time, and have the RAID array rebuild. (Actually, not quite true, first I backed up all the files on the NAS to a spare drive that I keep off-site.) The rebuild took several days, swapping one drive at a time. Finally, when it was done I had the space I would have had if I had purchased 2 TB drives, not the space I thought I'd paid for.
Some Googling showed that the problem was that the drives had originally been formatted with fdisk (because when I got the NAS I was using older firmware). Therefore there was the 2 TB limit. Swapping drives as per the RAID kept all of the new drives formatted the same way. Some more googling showed that an existing drive formatted with fdisk could be "jacked up" and the gdisk formatting dropped in. I took one drive out and put it on another computer running Linux. This worked. Unfortunately, when I dropped the "jacked up" drive back in the RAID didn't like it. (Maybe it would have worked if I had "jacked up" all of the drives before putting them back into the NAS.)
At this point, I admitted defeat and followed the official instructions, which amounted to zapping all five new disks and restoring from my backup.
In this case, the problem was the 2 TB limit, inherited from who knows where? (IBM, Microsoft and Intel?) Incidentally, Thecus sells their NAS products as appliances, not computers. However, they do have the ability to add some software, in this case I added SSH to gain root access to the machine, which was how I figured out what was going wrong, spacewise.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
The 2 TB limit has to do with 32-bit BIOS, 512-byte sector addressing & Master Boot Record dating back to the 1980's from the original PC/DOS days.
Many modern computers that are not encumbered by legacy compatibility use GUID Partition Table (GPT) initialized drives. But, you need a EFI or UEFI-based computer running a 64-bit OS to boot from a GPT drive.
Yes, that's correct with one possible exception. I don't believe that you necessarily need a 64 bit operating system with Linux to get past the 32 bit barrier. When I reflashed the DOM on my NAS from a new image I presume I got the new bios at that time. This machine has a 32 bit processor, but there's no access to the BIOS without opening up the box and connecting a display, something that I haven't tried. (This is what you have to do to recover from a bricked DOM on this NAS.)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Yes, I believe there were some interim work arounds for 32-bit OSs and EUFI but many systems support both EUFI and legacy BIOS.
It gets pretty complicated as I believe you have to consider 32-bit vs 64-bit device drivers as well.
all I know is my system ain't broke..I'm listening to the Simon and Garfunkel remasters (24/192) right now in my main system and the files are on a G-Tech drive two flights up.
i picked up my iPad, selected the album, hit play, and my DAC is sending music to amp which in turn is sending it to my speaker.
and it sounds superb.
Nuthin' broken here.
I leave it other to masturbate their computer audio systems while go deep into my library on a daily basis.
I take it you presumed this post/topic meant that all systems break and/or yours is broken?I don't think anyone was insinuating that your system is broken, so you can enjoy your computer audio system in peace.
I'd be willing to bet this topic is not about you.
FWIW, my system in not broken either, hasn't been for some years now.
Enjoy.
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
Edits: 07/23/15
I have 4 Squeezebox Touches and a Sonos and Can Stream music from any number of my Laptops, Desktop PCs and Tablets. BTW - I have never had my Squeezeboxes fail. Not so with my Computers, but I fix them myself.
I rely more on the Internet and Electricity to run my stereo. I will admit without electricity, I am pretty much fucked.
Cut-Throat
Nonsense strawman post.
You pick the most knuckle headed product on the market made by a company with the most horrendous, checkered past in high end audio. Nice.
Name more examples. I will be waiting.
Nonsense strawman post.You may not like it but my post is factual and makes perfect sense.
Straman argument: "In its simplest definition, it's the name of a logical fallacy, which means that if you carefully dissect the argument or statement, it doesn't make sense."
Name more examples. I will be waiting.
Any appliance that breaks, and they eventually will. I don't need to post specific examples to support the claim in my original post.
Edits: 07/22/15 07/22/15 07/22/15
But how many others have your skill set to get in there, replace the hard drive, power supply, RAM, or for goodness sakes, - the main board?Not to mention, the Mac Mini's POS USB bus.
""Straman argument: "In its simplest definition, it's the name of a logical fallacy, which means that if you carefully dissect the argument or statement, it doesn't make sense."""
Yeah, - that is the simplest definition, but it is not nearly the best. A straw man argument is DISTORTING, CHANGING, or MIS-CHARACTERIZING the argument in order to make it easily defeatable.
This is incredibly similar to your accusation of Payola amongst reviewers who preferred network digital file players.
What happens if your AMPLIFIER "appliance" (LOL), - breaks? Or, one's CD transport motor fails?
In addition to your Straw Man, - you doubled down, - and added Troll.
You have your solution, you like it: why go out of your way to "attack?"
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 07/22/15 07/22/15
What happens if his MAC breaks?
Some here are just anti Sony for whatever ulterior reason.
Not that I would buy one of these.
You nailed it. In every way.
Pretty beyond the pale to go out of his way to attack..and using the worst possible example of a streamer/file player. It was DOA, like many of Sony's other brilliant still born products. Let's see..you can only load it via a network, it uses proprietary file encryption, the menu navigation is horrible..wait let's just stop there.
To make it even MORE disingenuous...he bought one and returned it. Shameful thread.
You are big on saying things are DOA. Like DSD. Guess what? DSD will survive until Chad Kassem pulls the plug on it. I actually think it's closer to a preme baby in an incubator gaining weight. It lives still.
You also seem to think that decent audiophile components start at $4K and up. That's not true. It's not true about DACS. It's not true about servers. It's not true about turntables. It's not true about carts. It's not true about preamps. It's not true about interconnects. It's not true about amps. It's not true about speaker cables. It's not true about speakers. It's just not true.
My trips to audio shows proves this time and again. You got beppe thinking he'll never have a nice system till he drops $30K on it. That's messed up. It' messed up, because it's not true.
I'll put the average component price at $1,500. Used of course. Can be done for less, but still in most anyone's reach. Even if in the end the system is ten grand or so. At that's a damn good system that leaves audio show bling far behind.
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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
DSD will survive until he pulls the plug? WHAT plug?????
there are 501 downloads that come up in a search on SuperHirez, and half of those are obscure jazz and classical, and a good number of THOSE are upsampled George Marino 48 Khz files.
You should REALLY aquatint your self with the facts.
The best part is since, the promised DSD material is never going to materialize...Viola!..you now get DSD Upsampling....everybody clap!!!
You must be joking. Where are you getting this??? Where did I EVER say there is some imaginary $4K threshold? Are you thinking of someone else?
FYI, the iFi Micro iDSD DAC, at $500, is one of the bargains of the decade IMO.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
My mistake.
Anybody who has ever made an SACD has a DSD master. One day they will figure that out, and put them out for download, because it will be easy money. Wait until Mofi and Music Direct figures it out.
Unlike the video tape format war loser, the loser in this competition doesn't have to die.
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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
I am implore you to check for your self..go on superhirez.com and hit the DSD search tab. Take a look at the numbers.
Sure there is an "SACD master" for every SACD that was pressed, but that is roughly 11,000 all told, and a decent number had PCM stages during mastering.
I personally like the sound of DSD128. I know of exactly ONE popular title in that format..the new Cat Stevens Tea For the Tillerman download that is purported to be a direct analog tape capture.
DSD has been a moniker that has been used to breath life into a the carcass of a intellectually bankrupt market sector. Everyone on the sell side loves it..DAC makers can "upgrade" their units to "DSD Ready" status, same for streamers, DSD upsamping can be sold as the second coming of Jeezus. And it goes on.
Be cynical or be a sucker.
I hear what you are saying. I've been watching the new DSD releases at superhirez. Pretty pitiful. I thought if they released about 500 the first year they would do at least that the second. I'll be surprised if they add 100 titles by the end of this year.
Still it ain't quite dead yet. The situation could change. If the record companies figure out that it's nothing more than ripping a tape to a DSD workstation, well how hard could that be.
Work tomorrow. Later.
--------------------------------------------------------
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
"If the record companies figure out that it's nothing more than ripping a tape to a DSD workstation, well how hard could that be."
Transferring a tape to digital is not a simple task. It involves careful setup and adjustment of the analog tape machine, locating a suitable quality master tape, evaluating the condition of the master tape and correcting defects (e.g. "baking" it if necessary), a 1 to 1 real time transfer, listening and making needed EQ adjustment which may be needed for a variety of reasons, adjusting levels, capturing the transfer in the workstation, editing the start and end of each file and possibly editing any glitches in the playback due to artifacts on the tape, etc...
This requires a significant capital investment in tools and an experienced mastering engineer to get first rate results. We are talking several hours work of work, minimum, for each hour of music that is transferred. At least $1000 cost to the record company, and that's assuming that the tape is in perfect condition. It's not like ripping a CD which can be done in five minutes using under $500 worth of equipment by someone who isn't even a technician, let alone an engineer.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Boy, there's a contractual vocabulary word you would need to know if you were a musician; recoupment.
What it means for a record company is this; every dime they spend on producing the artists album is taken off the top of the artist's cut, until the entire amount is repaid. That is the artist or band is solely liable for the production cost. I've read of bands that recorded and sold albums that went gold only to find out they never made a dime. They were livin' too large during the recording session.
Really your average record exec is about one step above a pimp.
All this to say that a capital outlay of $1000 is a joke to the record companies. It used to be that they could justify their 40% because they did have real capital outlays, like manufacturing the records and shipping them to market. You used their established distribution network. They even said that the 40% helped all the other bands whose records didn't ever break even. It's harder for them to say all that now.
Yes yes, a Sonoma DSD workstation costs $16K, but so does an audiophile approved Playback Designs DAC. You can be sure the record label would amortize the hell out of that Sonoma. When they get on the bandwagon they will rotate engineers on those workstations by shift, and that engineer's chair will never get cold. If they were really smart they would sell them direct from their own website. I already see that to an extent. Back in the day they probably had agreements against this, but these days, goodness knows - anything goes.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
That would be a minimum $1000 charge for the work if it were subcontracted out, not the capital cost.
But if you just want a tape converted to digital without regard to quality it can probably be much less if there is no EQ, no level setting, no editing, no listening and if the studio can use an intern to do the actual work of swapping reels and pushing buttons. I've seen 150 reels transferred to digital and put on a hard drive for 1000 Euro's total. The tapes were in Germany and so this work had to be done there. My only role was to evaluate a few sample files from two different studios for sound quality. I did this blind without knowing the names of the studios or the pricing or equipment. As it turned out the low bidder produced the best sound quality and the overall quality was excellent. The high priced studio used name brand gear, but the sound quality was not so good, probably due to equipment maintenance and setup, so I won't cast any aspersions as to the quality of the gear, which I eventually discovered, only to say that I wouldn't buy this company's products despite their esteemed name in pro audio circles.
I can't comment on the music "business". For me, music is art and love, not business. IMO if this "business" ceased to exist, music and real musicians would probably end up better off. However, even those musicians who have sold out for money aren't as bad as the scum middlemen who end up exploiting them. Just saying...
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I just used the term "rip" because I have two hi res files, Traffic JBMD and Blindfaith ST, that sound exactly like the vinyl record. Maybe a lot of TLC went into them. I don't know.
Funny, I was going to use the term sausage factory in my previous post, and then you tell of a real life one, in Germany no less.
The gradual jettison of the physical media that has been taking place will blow the whole music system wide open. It's already been happening. Tower Records closed. For new music I think the future is something like Bandcamp, and all the classical download services. They are totally outside the old system. The vending won't be totally atomized. There has to be major vending places where large collections of music for sale are available, but outside of that, it's on. The old system will be for manufactured bands and music. That's been around forever and won't go away. However you may see Bands start to turn the files over directly to the vendor. Here is our new album Bandcamp. Thom Yorke released his new album on Bandcamp. That comes close to a watershed event for me. It's just how will the bands hook up with the good producers?
Oh one thing I forgot. When you do the $1000 transfer session. Be sure to output in DSD, three different PCM sample rates, and a MP3 version. Thanks.
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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Re-mastering or building a digital file, - as it should be called, - is another interpretation of the original, - although some "file builders" may not like that particular characterization.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Well..sorry to throw cold water on the situation..just keeping true to the facts.
BTW, it absolutely not as simple as putting up a tape and ripping it with a DSD workstation. 90% of the time gain changes, EQ, and numerous other subtle fixes are needed.
Not to mention..why would they bother...
Attack? I made one simple factual assertion with an example. Read into it what you wish.
Fluff post with no substance just like the thread.
This has been the consistent style.
The substance is there and simple for most inmates to understand. It's all there in the Subject line and first sentence. Easy peasy.
When your music appliance breaks you're at the mercy of others... ...while you wait for a fix.
.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
.
There isn't. It is only meaningful in his own mind.
Uh..no that is what happens when you choose the most convoluted, DOA, POS "music appliance" ever.
You buy this freaking paperweight and are surprised at the result?
I have owned over a dozen streamers, NONE have ever failed, locked up, or perform weirdly. I have 4 I run 24/7 right now.
Better luck next time sucker. LOL.
Just stating fact with supporting evidence in a real world example.It's up to you whether you get your panties in a knot over it.
Edits: 07/22/15
Cause I thought you were talking to me. You posted it as a response to Abe, so you must have been talking to him right?
-------------------------------------------------
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Actually was taking to abe..who has taken a strict anti "music appliance" stance, preferring off the shelf Foxxcoon boxes.
I believe he owns, or at one point owned the Sony.
NT
---------------------------------------------------------
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
Well at least I won't have to spend $175 on a Regen USB cleaner-upper. That's 10 or 11 hi-res albums.
What I like even more is I don't have to worry about jitter. Either the Sony engineers beat it or they didn't. It's off my mind.
Let's see how long it takes them to fix it.
-------------------------------------------------
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
they say that just having the regen in the same room improves the overall sq
http://mqnplayer.blogspot.co.uk/
It was a reply to someone saying they didn't need a regen, quite a witty reply too, if I say so myself. Don't know how you missed it. What's your excuse for posting off topic, are you a moderator ?
http://mqnplayer.blogspot.co.uk/
You are blatantly pushing an agenda using this excuse
Edits: 07/23/15
nothing about the topic.
There are obvious pluses and minuses to each solution. The convenience of a turnkey appliance is very appealing, until it breaks.
As for the Uptone Regen, I'm not convinced that I 'need' it but it's an optional item that may 'potentially' improve the sound. We'll see.
Hope Sony fixes their update soon. It IS a very nice sounding unit.
.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
We all know it has been separates for the past 50 years.
But I would think dac manufacturers would see the advantage of a one box solution. If they are smart enough to design a dac, then they are smart enough to stick it in a box with a Zotac/Vortexbox/CAPS server. Then they could hardwire the two together, and set the clocks any way they wanted to.
It would at least save having to buy a $500 cable or interconnect. That's about the price of the server. So many different ways it could be done.
----------------------------------------------------------
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!
A computer is a computer no matter how cleverly it is packaged and no matter how it is sold. Its true character becomes exposed when something goes wrong.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Tank you.
in the past.....
NOT
LOL
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Oh... Not that your comments has anything to do with the topic... but please tell use what is wrong with Sony manufactured computers? Are Sony Viao laptops bad?
How do you tell an amazing computer from an unamazing computer? Are there also sort of amazing computer??? What about marvelous computers???
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