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In Reply to: RE: Interesting the 1st comment posted by beppe61 on July 16, 2015 at 22:22:14
"Digital communications systems are designed around the idea that noise is inevitable in even the best systems, and you need a way to detect errors."
That to me is the entire point of digital: to provide a system that preserves a high quality signal in the face of unavoidable analog distortions.
I think current digital devices do a pretty good job of that. For example, I have a modest, far less than US$100 Blu-Ray player (complete with wall-wart power supply) that provides simply stunning Blu-Ray visuals and an adrenalin pumping 5.1 sound track. However, if I have the temerity to suggest that it also sounds pretty good at straight audio playback I'll be called deaf, or a troll, or otherwise insulted or dismissed.
You don't have to drink the kool-aid. You don't have to spend big bucks to get decent sound. Ask yourself this: given the huge strides in available video quality from VHS to Blu-Ray, and the concurrent reduction in size and price for the components, why hasn't audio been able to keep up? Is audio really that much more complex than video (with its accompanying audio tracks)? Or are audio engineers simply not as good as video (with its accompanying audio tracks) engineers? Or are we just being sold a bill of goods?
JE
Follow Ups:
Hi and thanks a lot for the very interesting advice.
I would be very interested to try out the BR player you mention, if i knew brand and model of course.
I am always interested in players that could work as streamers.
Most of BR players have ethernet port these days and i have my files on a nas ...
I am still oscillating between a streamer and the pc options
If i would find a good player i could put it in a beautiful box as well to build something nicer.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 07/17/15 07/17/15
My Blu-Ray player is nothing special. It is a Sony that I bought at random from a giant USA discount chain (I simply preferred the layout of the remote to those of the competitors). I've had it for a few years so it certainly has been superseded since then.
Note that when I say my Blu-Ray player is nothing special, I am only saying that from the perspective of 2015: ten years ago it would have been amazing, indeed, it likely would have exceeded the capabilities of most TVs. Twenty years ago it would have bordered on the unbelievable and certainly would have overwhelmed virtually all TVs except perhaps some ultra secret sets in locked down laboratories.
Now I can buy this kind of quality for less than US$100.
This also comes with an audio sound track that is
articulate: voices are clear and intelligible
spacious: sound comes from all around you when listening to a movie
airy: treble is clearly present and lets you hear into the harmonics surrounding you
rich: bass and mid bass are robust and energizing adding drive to the sound track and to songs
powerful: deep bass and .1 tracks are thunderous and energizing.
How is this not high end sound?
JE
Ethernet is a transformer isolated signal . . .
The transformers are there for safety reasons. They are not designed for - and are ineffective at - filtering noise. The humblest LAN installer (me, even) understands the reasons why but Tony Lauck has explained them on this forum a dozen times for those who don't.
And where this RF noise enters the equipment ?
Er, where the wire plugs in?
the entire point of digital: to provide a system that preserves a high quality signal in the face of unavoidable analog distortions.
The error-correction capabilities do indeed ensure that the content of a packet is not corrupted but correcting data errors does not filter associated noise and the computing activity needed to perform error correction typically adds to it. That noise won't induce errors in a spreadsheet but, as you know, tends to degrade the integrity of a real-time signal such as audio. This is basic stuff.
Sorry to sound like a Galileo wannabee but the best way to see if a "better" ethernet connection can improve the sound quality of your system is to try one. Whatever next?
Disconnect the LAN cable from the device that drives your DAC. Connect it to a decentish switching hub such as a small Netgear. Now connect the hub to the device driving your DAC with a variety of short cables. Try to compare a stock cable (with its notoriously out-of-spec impedances, poor connectors etc etc) with a good quality off-the-shelf cable such as a Rosewill and the likes of a Meicord, aimed at the audio sector but only slightly more expensive than the Rosewill. If you have a suitable linear PSU handy, try it on the hub.
If you can't hear the difference, save your money but don't think that doing so logically entitles you to belittle those who say they can. I've not tried a Rosewill but I have compared remote server connections via a Netgear switch (linear and wall-wart powered) using a Meicord, a decent CAT 7 and a stock cable. The Meicord via the linear-powered switch is clearly the best though the CAT 7 wasn't bad. Stock cables, esp when by-passing the switch, significantly degrade the sound. A network engineer has suggested I try using 100-BaseT instead of 1000-BaseT but I've yet to do so.
The only difference Meicord claims for their cables is an adherence to spec closer than practicable with cheaper cables. I do not, given their price, envisage trying Audioquest cables. Thanks BTW to sounchekk for the original tip.
"If you can't hear the difference, save your money but don't think that doing so logically entitles you to belittle those who say they can."
My point is that when playing Blu-Ray I see spectacular images on my monitor, while also hearing great audio from my very much generic Blu-Ray player.
I consider this to be a huge improvement over what I saw and heard from VHS some twenty years ago. I think the improvement in video and it's accompanying audio since then has been remarkable.
Now if DVD and Blu-Ray have so much better audio than before, why doesn't regular audio also have a comparable improvement?
Throw rocks at me all you want to, but can you at least answer my question?
If your amps and speakers can't stand the heat, tell them to get out of the kitchen. Just don't let them blame the cook for their inability to deliver a decent meal to the customers.
JE
My point is that when playing Blu-Ray I see spectacular images on my monitor
I'm sure you do but I was discussing a different issue, one prompted by beppe's post. I described (helpfully, I flatter myself) a brief experiment comparing different LAN configurations and suggested that others might want to try the same. If you don't, that's fine. Others might, just as I took up SC's suggestion some years back.
Throw rocks at me all you want to, but can you at least answer my question?
Silly abuse aside, which question? The post of yours I responded to asked three, none of them IMO much amenable to a serious answer. The article you linked to in the OP was so full of non-sequiturs, straw-man arguments and the like already much aired over many years that no-one in their right mind would attempt a reply. Me neither.
As for the VHS v Blu-Ray thing, the VHS (analogue) format was developed in the 1970s, the RBCD (digital) format a few years later. Since then, video has gone digital via DVD and Blu-Ray. Bar a niche "Hi-Res" market, the audio sector is still using RBCD (except when compressed). IOW, your analogy is inappropriate.
If your amps and speakers can't stand the heat, tell them to get out of the kitchen. Just don't let them blame the cook for their inability to deliver a decent meal to the customers.
Sorry but I don't know what you're talking about.
After poking around your site a bunch, i was grateful for how comprehensive, & clear, & useful all the information there is. FWIW, just wanted to say Thanks for all your work, there and here.
Cheers,
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
i was grateful for how comprehensive, & clear, & useful all the information there is.
Aw, shucks, you sure know the way to a girl's heart. The only snag is that I don't have a site. To make sure the right person gets the thanks, what site are you referring to?
D
Thought that you were involved with the "well tempered computer"
:-)
If not, - Thank you anyway for your great posts!!
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Thought that you were involved with the "well tempered computer" . . .
Not sure that Roseval would thank you for that : <( but I agree it's a most useful resource.
"Not sure that Roseval would thank you for that : <( but I agree it's a most useful resource."
A least he got the first letter right.
Is this like old Joke... Iceberg, Goldberg it's all the same.
.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Maybe thinking about streamers so much has affected your stream of consciousnesses...
Regular audio has improved. If you are happy with your equipment, what more needs to be said?
Hi and thanks again very much.
Your Sony player could be " nothing special " but still it must be an extremely competent player
and from your description it would fit exactly my actual needs.
As i said i am evaluating devices that can be used as streamers of files stored in a nas i am using.
The idea is to try different solution and keep the most functional and good sounding one.
Problem is that maybe not all models are equally well realized.
I would very grateful if you could tell me the exact model.
I see now some older models from Sony on sale here at very nice price.
The model number would be extremely useful to me
You can email me privately if you prefer.
Thank you sincerely.
Kind regards,
bg
Edits: 07/17/15 07/17/15 07/17/15 07/17/15 07/17/15
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