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In Reply to: RE: PONO: What it is REALLY about posted by Tony Lauck on January 15, 2015 at 16:52:23
Regardless, you can get superb results when starting with a high resolution file, then creating a redbook CD.There is one mastering engineer I know of, Steve Hoffman, who produces hybrid SACDs on the Audio Fidelity label and he insists on doing separate 44.1/16 and DSD captures for each layer.
Mobile Fidelity does not.
I find his results rather dull on the redbook layer, and MoFi's far more engaging, and since they have done many of the same titles, both on hybrid SACD, it is easy to compare.
Conversely, when producing a "Gold CD", he captures once at 192, the produces the CD from that.
Edits: 01/15/15Follow Ups:
Definitely want separate takes to capture PCM and DSD. A conversion will end up with the weaknesses of both formats, not the strengths. This is not true when downsampling PCM, where the result can be as good as an original capture at the lower resolution or even better if the ADC filtering is inferior to the filtering used in the sample rate converter.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Way to many variables and there is no one answer.
A DSD capture, then converted to 176.4/24, mastered well, then made into a Redbook CD can be excellent, as the Japan Platinum SHM series clearly shows.
Is it better to capture 44.1/16 then above? I say start with the highest resolution possible regardless of the end format desired.
"This is not true when downsampling PCM, where the result can be as good as an original capture at the lower resolution or even better if the ADC filtering is inferior to the filtering used in the sample rate converter."
Absolutely, so when posters proclaim there should be one capture for the hi rez download release and another for CD, they really don't understand the variables.
My comparisons were of DSD downsampled to 88/24 or 176/24 vs. direct capture to these PCM formats. However, it is possible that the result of converting DSD to 44/16 will be as good as direct capture. (It could even be the same if the converter was native DSD and did its own conversion to PCM.
My attitude toward 44/16 down conversions now is: Who cares? I consider 44/16 to be a compressed format and of value only for historical purposes. There is no longer any market or technical need to distribute 44/16 recordings where there is already a hi-res digital master if the audience is people who care about sound quality. It's a waste of time to tweak the 44/16 version once one already has a great sounding hi-res master, IMO.
I believe that hi-res releases of new digital recordings should be priced with a very small discount for 44/16 format off of the studio master format. However, where remastering of classic analog recordings is involved, then high prices are entirely justified to cover the cost of amortizing the remastering process, which is a skilled process, something that requires both engineering and art and is not within the grasp of a button pushing technician.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I agree with you but you do realize that the CD is still the dominant form of physical consumption globally. There are still 250 million people annually who purchase CDs.
The music website for which I am the webmaster is now doing 90% of its business in downloads, not CDs. We are starting to worry that we will be stuck with a large inventory of CDs, like our inventory of unsellable cassette tapes.
I haven't purchased a physical CD in years. My last 400 music purchases have been downloads.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Yes from a financial, physical size and environmental point of view, CDs are done for. They are already gone.
The media discs may continue as a cheapish way to distribute small amounts of data for some time, although don't be surprised if solid state media takes over there as well.
New moguls will be established eventually.
Will it be PONO? Why not, as of now they are the only visible company being proactive of doing a better job analogizing media at the source, as opposed to compression techniques deployed by the current market leaders.
"CDs are done for.."On what planet?
As long as deluxe reissues of classic rock staples continue to be released, and their is an audience for it, they will continue.
Case in point..all the Jethro Tull, yes, King Crimson, ELP, John Martyn, and Pink Floyd packages, which have no download equivalent.Oh, and there is no way to consume the Beatles in lossless apart from CDs, or the Vinyl reissues.
Pono may change this.
Edits: 01/16/15
That is a very narrow point of view of the market though.CD's are already lossey to begin with (compared to analog) which is why some find it preferable to roll the dice and find a good FLAC, or are tolerant of AAC. Worst case scenario you get CD quality with FLAC.
I literally cannot think of a practical benefit to physical CDs vs SS media.
128Gig of storage is the size of a fingernail now.It's quite possible that my town does not even have a legitimate "CD" store anymore.
In the very near future, you will see more new cars with 1/8" aux jacks then with CD players.It's cost and convenience, the same phenomenon that brought us 8-tracks, cassettes and CDs in the first place. DVD/ blueray was able to stay in the same footprint, but now it's not practical to make a machine with moving parts that holds more data.
Deprecation.
Edits: 01/16/15
The overall catalog of titles that are available for download at CD resolution is still just a fraction of the catalog available on CD. And even when there is a download available, I can usually buy the CD and have it shipped to my door for less than the cost of the download. That is what keeps the CD format alive for me, even though I haven't been spinning CDs since ~2010.
"I can usually buy the CD and have it shipped to my door for less than the cost of the download. "
What's up with that? That might be true if you know of thrift shops that do mail orders. Most prices on downloads are significantly cheaper than CDs, even before allowing for S&H.
If you know of some exceptions, please let us know.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Amazon.com
"We are all in God's hands... and God is a malign thug."
-Mark Twain
What you are seeing is sale pricing, probably due to overstocked inventory. Production costs and royalties have already been paid. Download sites also have sales pricing. What matters are prices you actually have to pay to get the music that you like. Also, there is the question of total cost, which means shipping and handling as well (or amortized membership fees for free shipping).
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I'm afraid you are out of the loop on this subject.Amazon does not charge for shipping on $35 worth orders, it went up last year from $25. No membership fee, unless you want 2 day shipping for items, which costs $80 a year. I never pay shipping from Amazon unless I buy from a third party seller, which is often, because their prices are fantastic that shipping cost still makes it cheaper than a download, if it even available.
Who buys music they don't like? Odd comment.
Edits: 01/17/15
I looked at 44/16 downloads for titles that interested me. I wasted a fair amount of time, only came up with two. One was cheaper as a download, the other from Amazon. This may be a label issue. Both of the higher priced options were more than I usually pay for downloads of 44/16 quality. Of course, one can pay more, even substantially more, for better than CD quality. This only makes sense if you believe (as I do) that the higher resolution sounds better.
If the price is equal, I prefer the download since it saves the effort of ripping (and often tagging for music which is not mainstream, most of my stuff). There is also the space issue.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I agree with you I prefer a download over a physical product these days..but I can't get beyond the part of me that wants the DL to be cheaper, and it should be IMO.
Of course I believe, as you do, that higher than CD resolution sounds better.
To repeat the Pono store is in a state of flux. It will stabilize.
Just until 3 MONTHS ago, HDtracks search function was pathetic. And that is after 5 year in business.
Nope, Tony that is the reality. As someone who buys 250+ albums per year I can tell you that 90% of the time the disc is cheaper. I use all avenues for price comparisons,
Of course we are talking CD vs CD resolution download.But truth be told there ARE not that many CD download stores...Qobuz, Bandcamp, etc.
That's where the majority of music sales happen in this country.
"We are all in God's hands... and God is a malign thug."
-Mark Twain
um, more like Amazon.com
Amazon 24%, Walmart 22%.
This is a recent change, used to be the other way around.
"We are all in God's hands... and God is a malign thug."
-Mark Twain
In the greater scheme of things I agree with you.
However, if we are talking about narrow, there are millions of perfectly good working CD players installed in systems around the world, and quite frankly, it is still how most audiophiles listen.
At the last two CES, there were no less than 50 CD players and transports introduced.
Just a quick glance at this year the ones that stood out were a new transport from Bryston, CD players from Cambridge Audio, Roksan, Mcintosh, Marantz, and even CRAZY expensive models form Burmeser, etc.
Kinda does not fit with the narrative.
"I haven't purchased a physical CD in years. My last 400 music purchases have been downloads."
Sure, that is you. I am still at 50% physical product.
Clearly there will be large of inventories of CDs everywhere at one point..but not quite yet.
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