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There is a thread on CA that was discussing the ongoing JRiver hoax issues. JRiver Jim got involved and when the OP brought up the fact that people can post their displeasure on Face Book Jim immediately offered the OP his $$ back. It is not about the $$ and the OP said that. Jim got nervous and had Chris shut down the thread.
Follow Ups:
JRMC latest version (20.0.44) excludes jplay asio from it's device selection.
http://mqnplayer.blogspot.co.uk/
At this point, it would seem that Mr. ASIO (Steinberg Audio) might enter the fray. Perhaps this latest move by J. River violates their license terms. Either way, JRIVER should be blacklisted by thinking audiophiles due to their business practices.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I tried JPlay . . .
Simple, JPlay interferes with the JRiver process. Uninstall Jplay and JRiver will work and if it doesn't work you will receive support. Decide to keep Jplay and you are on your own. Same old overplayed story. My suggestion, get with the program or find a different player/management software.
Edits: 11/29/14
... remote at best, thrown out there by JRiver team, perfectly in line with their campaign to discredit JPlay.Of course, it deteriorates from remote to purely nonsensical, when applied to particular problem with video the OP experienced. Not surprising that it wasn't cured by uninstalling JPlay and reinstalling JRiver.
Fail - as usual.
Edits: 12/01/14
All jplay is doing is allowing itself to be set up as an ASIO destination in
jrmc, hardly interfering.
http://mqnplayer.blogspot.co.uk/
The issue is what JPlay does beneath the sheets of the operating system, not the ASIO interfacing. Both JPlay and JRiver are real-time software so they must somehow make their peace for the system to work without glitches. Getting real-time software developed by separate organizations to work together is difficult, possibly impossible if the principal(s) are warring.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Tony,
I think you are misinterpreting what is going on a bit. There is really no interference. Timing is another issue, but JPlay does not affect JRiver in anyway. It is akin to saying your printer and it's driver is affecting your word processing software. Not going to happen...
regards
How do you know that nothing untoward might happen? By the nature of the beast, there might be problems on one system and not on another. Yes, people can "tune" their system. If they are competent they can probably do so successfully and not add to any software vendor's support costs. However, other users won't be skillful or polite.
You would not believe how unbelievably stupid some computer users can be unless you did time on a support desk. Sometimes, not a joking matter.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
"How do you know that nothing untoward might happen?"
It this case I really do know. Not in the OP personal setup but the software in question. Granted the OP could have anything going on and he did bring the wrath of JRiver on himself.
"However, other users won't be skillful or polite."
True.
"You would not believe how unbelievably stupid some computer users can be unless you did time on a support desk. Sometimes, not a joking matter."
Yes I am well aware of the insanity...
they aren't real time, they both utilise buffers to get round latency issues. If the jplay ASIO interface is written to the ASIO spec then jrmc should have nothing to worry about. The fact jplay has other bells and whistles that might affect jrmc eg process suspension is something that can be tuned by the user.
http://mqnplayer.blogspot.co.uk/
Real time means that there are timing constraints. Buffers do not change this, but larger buffers allow for looser timing constraints. However, the software is still running in real-time and if insufficient computer resources are applied, music playback will eventually be affected.Processing that is completed before start of a playlist is not real-time. Everything else needed to hear music is real time. In some cases, even background processes unrelated to audio can accidentally find their way into the critical path due to priority inversion.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Edits: 12/01/14
windows is not a realtime OS so it cannot be realtime, resources are scheduled and the cpu swaps processes in and out as required. The only timing constraint is that the driver should be able to service the end device with data.
http://mqnplayer.blogspot.co.uk/
I don't want to engage in a debate over terminology. Ordinary versions of Windows are not marketed as being a real-time operating system, but they are often used for real time applications. They usually work satisfactorily provided that time constraints are loose enough (e.g. a few milliseconds) and system load is low enough (e.g. less than 15%). Even safety critical real time applications such as air traffic control have run successfully on non-real time operating systems.
All operating systems, including real time operating systems, schedule resources. Real time operating systems typically provide some form of timing guarantees to their processes and may include enforcement mechanisms to keep non-critical processes from depleting resources needed by critical real-time processes.
As to swapping in/out of memory, I think you will find that most users running computer audio on Windows do not run with a swap file, whether or not they have a dedicated computer. The first two "tweaks" are generally to disable the swap file and to disable the anti-virus scanning.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
think we're both in agreement
I didn't mention swapping out memory
http://mqnplayer.blogspot.co.uk/
We are in agreement. I misinterpreted your "swapping" remark to mean memory management (i.e. paging to/from RAM to disk).
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
If you paid by credit card, you should ask for your money back.
You are off base. You should have uninstalled JPlay and run the test. By its nature, JPlay messes with the relationship between device drivers, the operating system, and audio applications. It is entirely possible that this remains while JPlay is installed even if it is not actively in use. (Example: Anti-virus software often behaves this way.)
It is elementary diagnostic strategy to isolate components and to diagnose a minimal collection. You were asked to do this and you didn't. If you ask for help and don't follow advice given then why should you expect more help? If you've read all of my posts on JRiver, you will see I am no fan of them. But in this case they are right and you are wrong.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
"Or is it that you think the trial software, which is not activated, is what's causing MC to have video errors?"
If they would have written: "Yes, your JPlay trial is interfering with JRMC", I would have immediately uninstalled it. But, instead of answering my question, they wrote: "I'm closing this thread. We can't help if you're not willing to listen or try things."
As it was, I DID uninstall my JPlay trial and re-installed JRMC but the same problem continued. My conclusion is that JRMC doesn't need help from JPlay to break.
Having said that, I'll confess I was more aggressive than might have been called for as I was really put off by their JPlay bashing while touting Connaker's subjective opinion regarding JRMC.
"As it was, I DID uninstall my JPlay trial and re-installed JRMC but the same problem continued. My conclusion is that JRMC doesn't need help from JPlay to break."At this point I can think of two logical possibilities: JRiver has a problem with your system without regard to JPlay, or that the uninstall of JPlay was somehow incomplete. Unfortunately, if the installation of JPlay was in the far past there is probably no easy way to reliably diagnosis this situation. (If you had a system image or system restore point from prior to the original installation of JPlay then you would get a fair test.)
Of course, if you trust the JPlay uninstall process then you would be good to go, the problem is JRiver. However, given two software products that don't work together, there is no a priori way to know which one is buggy. I do recall software that would not uninstall, although the uninstaller reported success. This was some years ago, so I don't recall the specific make and model of software, but it was a fancy internet security package. I remain innately suspicious of various add on "optimizers" that mess with the operating system because of this experience.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Edits: 11/30/14
This is a stereo-dedicated PC, so there isn't much software to reload. I guess I would mostly need to save my JRMC libraries and such.Of course, that also requires that I can reload JRMC18 at this late date. I forget the process for that.
Edits: 11/30/14
Given the quotes around "just" I would say we are probably on the same page, ... :-)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
JR18 video is not up to scratch, period. There is no cause to blame this on other software on the audio side
just to add to the record that I purchased JRiver in 2013 at the implied recommendation of the JPlay website and the many good JPlay reviews.. but never installed JRiver on my latest server build due to their reported popup. JPlay running in hibernate mode with Total Commander, WIN2012 core and AO is wonderful on my system..
Well in this case I understand what they were feeling. They were not totally wrong IMO. When you go in a public forum first, it is like standing in front of a store with a megaphone trashing the management, then walking inside and expecting them to be cordial.
To be fair video audio synchronization is a tricky thing and introducing anything that may affect timing is a recipe for disaster.
My two channel "audio only" system has no home theater duties. I personally feel anything else would be blasphemy!
I use a old SR-606 Onkyo HT receiver, 5 Energy satellite speakers and a Yamaha sub woofer for home theater duties. Totally different animal from my 2 channel systems.
In the receiver you can adjust delay if necessary for proper lip sync.
As per their published customer policy:"... JRiver will not provide support for Media Center if Jplay is used. ..."
There policy is understandable. Consider what software support contracts costs are and what scope of support your company is willing to fund for a $50 purchase. Hint, support contracts are easily over $100/hour.
Would your company fund open-ended customer support for a $50 purchase, or would your company focus it's scope on your product line?
Edits: 11/28/14 11/28/14
"Hint, support contracts are easily over $100/hour."
You cannot really look at public forum support the same as contract support. Hence the difference in cost.
Nobody is perfect but I think JRiver's support is really pretty good, even though I think they are being sophomoric to post the "hoax" message on the web.
Believe me, anyone who is seriously thinking of trying or buying JPlay would not be swayed at all by that message.
And anyone that would be... would not buy JPlay in a million years anyway.
So IMO all in does is keep putting JRiver in the center of an unnecessary ongoing controversy.
Chris Connaker's thread closing words.
Seems weird to me. Many others threads over there have been much worse, IMO. A couple of the Pono threads or DSD-related threads, for example.
"Chris Connaker's thread closing words.
Seems weird to me. Many others threads over there have been much worse, IMO. A couple of the Pono threads or DSD-related threads, for example."
A TON worse! He is stuck in the middle. He seems like a real nice guy but Jim is his friend, an advertiser and made cartons with Beavis. I feel sorry for him because I feel if it was anyone other than JRiver he would not condone the "hoax" crap.
Sometimes, sad to say, it is necessary to drop one's friends if they are beyond the limit of what one can handle while maintaining one's own composure and integrity.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
"Sometimes, sad to say, it is necessary to drop one's friends if they are beyond the limit of what one can handle while maintaining one's own composure and integrity."
Very true, I agree... But.
There are also serious financial issues. JRiver is a site sponsor and now they are also sponsoring the new caps 4 project. That is a pretty big bill. Chris said he personally spent thousands on the previous designs purchasing and testing hardware.
Financial difficulties may provide an explanation, but they do not provide an excuse. Allowing financial difficulties to corrupt one's ethics has been the entry point for many people down the path to financial and moral ruin.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Tony,
Why do you presume that is the case? I've always found your posts to be fair and even-handed.
Don't let your issues with JRiver and JPlay influence your opinion of the CA web site or it's owner.
This just doesn't sound like you.
Please do not reach any unwarranted conclusions. My comments were general remarks. They apply to anyone who might find himself in a similar situation. I know that I've found myself in difficult situations where I was torn by loyalty to a friend vs. the desire to do the right thing and I know that making good decisions may be difficult, especially since one does not have the benefit of hindsight.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
"Financial difficulties may provide an explanation, but they do not provide an excuse. Allowing financial difficulties to corrupt one's ethics has been the entry point for many people down the path to financial and moral ruin."
Or you can just print more money.
that Jim Hiilegas was bashing subjective opinions about JPlay, on the one hand, while happily quoting Connaker's subjective opinion that JRMC was better than iTunes on the other.I just don't get why JRiver gets so bent out-of-shape about the affair. Just be happy that JPlay is helping sell copies of JRMC and move on.
Meanwhile, don't look for customer support for JRMC if you've ever tried the JPlay demo version.
> > > I feel sorry for him because I feel if it was anyone other than JRiver he would not condone the "hoax" crap.
I get the sense that Mr. Connaker is a computer geek first and audiophile second. I read his subjective opinions with that in mind. And, yeah, he's pretty much caught in a no-win situation with JRiver and JPlay.
Edits: 11/26/14 11/26/14
I do see where Chris closed the thread because he was unhappy about some of the comments being made. I don't see where Jim asked him to do so.
Did I miss something? If so, maybe you could post a link to that or provide a direct quote.
Thanks
+1The heckler appeared to be more interested in using CA as a bitching board then receiving a refund and moving on. He made his point and that should have been enough.
I just rechecked the thread. @ 40% of the heckler's post count is on his second bitching thread. It appears he signed up on CA to use it as a public ax grinding platform and not to be a constructive part of their community. This 40% does not include the initial thread he was taking over for the same topic.
Edits: 11/26/14
Of course he would not ask him publicly. They are friends and JRiver is a sponsor. JRiver is covering the cost of the new Caps 4 design. Chris in the middle.
You're right, Chris did mention that JRiver are a sponsor. But I like to think he has enough integrity that he closed the thread simply because it was becoming a bit trite.
Jim got real nervous when he realized that people can start posting on facebook. smh
Bob C
Are these facts you are posting or simple fiction or additional bs
Already answered. Keep up the good work.
I don't know anything about Facebook. And I plan to keep it that way.
I can understand why JRiver might object to the name JPlay, but that doesn't seem to be the crux of the matter. It looks to me like JRiver has unfairly singled out JPlay because the JRiver devs believe that bits is bits and JPlay claims otherwise. It seems to have turned into a vendetta, which is sad. They're running a business not leading a crusade. They should just get over it and be thankful for the extra business JPlay is bringing them.
The real fun comes when you realize that the "bits are bits" people don't even output the right bits. (Which is not surprising because they don't how to calculate the right bits when it's necessary.)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I think the guy believes this.
They no doubt believe that the application of dither (correctly, incorrectly, or not at all) is not audible at the 24-bit level and therefore isn't worth their bother. If it was anyone less than Bob Katz starting that thread I doubt it would have gotten their attention.
Expression "hyena pack mentality" comes to mind.
I have tried JPlay multiple times and it has never been a value-add for my rigs (YMMV).
Since it is a free country (last time I checked), JRiver should be able to do anything they want with their product. If they think some software, configuration or modification is problematic for their product, they should be able to inform their customers how to get the most from their product.
If you don't like it, don't use it and move on.
Here's my 2 cents.
I don't own either piece of software, so I don't have a dog in this fight.
BUT, I think they could put a black box warning in their literature, on their site (A "readme" link regarding Jplay) and something that pops up when you install.
But nag screens for customers who paid for their product? If they paid for the product, why does JRiver care? Why p1ss off your customers? Over a grudge match with another company? (Reasons I won't go into, it's been stated everywhere else).
My viewpoint is that you are putting out your customers over a third-party grudge. If people want to experiment with Jplay let them.
I'd rather have JRiver *not work at all* if Jplay is present than give me nag screens when I am trying to listen to music. I might actually buy JRiver one day here, and I probably won't install Jplay so I guess I won't be nagged?
That's my two, er 12, cents.
Cheers,
Presto
"Since it is a free country (last time I checked)"
So it is ok for them to have one of their people create a blog post on CA full of misinformation about JPlay... Put up a SEARCHABLE page calling JPlay a "HOAX" and then when the OP in the thread did not want his $$ back they made CA shut down the thread.
Free, true... But people do not really care for bullies.
The thread you posted does not appear to come from JRiver. It is a poll asking if JRiver should modify their software or not.I can not comment on a thread that I am not aware of or have not read (do you have a link to the thread in question?).
I just did the search for the other item and read their searchable recommendations page. The word Hoax might be considered a bit strong, but everything else appears acceptable.
I can understand their dilemma of having something that impacts their product and product support. I would not want to waste my company's resources trying to support an undesired configuration of my product, would you?
"... To protect its customers, JRiver will remove forum posts that discuss Jplay. JRiver will not provide support for Media Center if Jplay is used. ..."
Edits: 11/25/14
The thread grew out of another thread on CA dedicated to tips and techniques on the use of JRiver which has been very useful to myself and others. A particular individual wanted to interject his issue with the JRiver/JPlay topic. He was to say the least strong willed and strong minded in his persistence of pursuing a topic within this thread. He was asked and challenged several times by several members including myself to take his issues and complaints elsewhere meaning outside of that particular thread. He then began a separate thread and poll to voice his objections. When the vast majority of participants disagreed with his position his "attitude" deteriorated again. There was some response from personnel from JRiver with one post simply stating there position on JPlay. If there was anyone who was heavy handed in this matter it was the instigator in the first thread and the OP in the next.
Edits: 11/26/14 11/26/14
"He then began a separate thread and poll to voice his objections."
"When the vast majority of participants disagreed with his position his "attitude" deteriorated again. There was some response from personnel from JRiver with one post simply stating there position on JPlay. If there was anyone who was heavy handed in this matter it was the instigator in the first thread and the OP in the next. "
Nice work of fiction.
When will you next book be on Amazon? Fiction sells well.
If it is fiction then it would be in comparison to your pure bs
Well to make this easier for you. Then you are just lying.
The Poll was 62.90% to 33.87% to remove the message. And except for the usually bullies the majority of posts agreed with the OP. JRiver explained nothing about their position regarding JPlay (unless you are you talking about mitchco and his sound card? LOL ) ?
12 minutes after the OP mentioned Facebook Jim offered him a refund. Then the thread get shut down soon after that.
Where is your "vast majority"? smh
I'm talking about the original thread he was crapping in
Ok
Sorry, you did not say that.
I did not read that one. But please take a fair look at the recent one. Pretty clear what went on..
The thread it the one on CA. It is linked already. Yes all they should do is inform and then not support anyone that used their product in an unapproved manner. Anything else is not really appropriate in a civilized society.
it trumps virtually every other player/manager software out there and sounds super on my system. If JRiver doesn't want software riding piggy back on their baby then that's their prerogative. There really isn't much of an issue except for the few fanatics that keep lighting small fires here and there.
"If JRiver doesn't want software riding piggy back on their baby then that's their prerogative"
You missed the main issue, which has to do with the word "Hoax". I wonder where you are coming from. Did you read the thread carefully? Did you comprehend what the discussion has been about? Are you a JRiver shill or sock puppet, per chance?
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
For whom? With scores of register keys and cache files that have nothing to do with audio and may not uninstall unless one searches for them.
If IR offers an audio facility to keep computers clean, then I would use it. As it is, I would only use it on an imaged HDD. Also, video is rubbish for those of us in EU and is not a truly usable 'media' program as KLite is much better and no hassle.
Foobar is a much cleaner and better thought out program. Sounds somewhat different but as good if you know how to configure it in a simple way. There is no way of configuring JR simply without spending time, which you loose if you uninstall and reinstall - a hassle.
And the rabid cattle doesn't.
Not to mention that nobody is "riding piggy back on their baby". JRiver exposes certain API, which developers - of JPlay or of anything else - are free to use. Literally - you could develop an application which, when used together with JRiver, pops up a window "JRiver sucks", and there's nothing they could do, except for 2 things:
- start disparaging campaign against you, as they did with JPlay;
- make their architecture closed, so nobody could create any add-ons.
bad ears, bad setup, and bad manners
obviously so :)
- you said, more than once, that you don't hear any difference between JRiver and JPlay;
- you said, at least once, that you don't hear any difference between setups where files are pulled from external USB HD, versus internal SATA HD.What someone who needs - on his system, with his ears/brain - about 15 seconds into a particular track, to clearly hear both of those differences, is supposed to think?
Edits: 11/27/14
"What someone who needs - on his system, with his ears/brain - about 15 seconds into a particular track, to clearly hear both of those differences, is supposed to think?"
It could be that he has a much more solid DAC than you and/or a much more stable amplifier, either of which might reject artifacts that your playback chain passes on to your ears. Just thinking, not saying.... :-)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
for the reminders, I often forget the wording of my posts.
I was simply agreeing that you have better ears than I. You must, because you hear subtle differences in most every "tweek" that you perform and like you stated, some of them in 15 seconds.
It could be worse.... They could sue, like a certain monstrous audio company has been known to do.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I don't think it's fair to say that JPlay is riding piggyback on JRiver.
If I understand it right, JPlay is just an audio output "device" that supports the ASIO protocol, so it's designed to work with any player that supports ASIO output, not just JRiver.
Besides, JRiver's architecture was designed to support 3rd party plugins and different output devices, and JRiver even hosts a forum where 3rd parties are invited to introduce/plug their wares. Why single out JPlay?
My understanding is that because JPlay claim that whatever they do makes everything sound better. It's not just a plugin that allows a conversion from one format to another.
JRiver's response seems to be that output using ASIO or WASAPI is already bit perfect, and JPlay are making claims they can't substantiate.
Full disclosure - I use JRiver and also own JPlay. I haven't tried JPlay in quite some time so can't really say whether any of their claims of sonic improvement due to a clever algorithm are true or not.
JRiver can put up whatever "warnings" they want. This is freedom of speech. (These warnings are old news.)
When I first learned of these warnings I put JRiver in my personal "do not buy" category. This is freedom of association. I prefer not to do business with individuals and companies that are incompetent and/or unethical. I have no idea which of these, if any. apply in this case, but the warnings provide strong evidence that something is wrong in the state of JRiver.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
See this thread . The guy who originally pointed this out, IgorZep, got banned from there. I tried to talk some sense into them but gave up and decided not to buy the software. They closed the thread.
Thanks.
Sad to say, it looks like you are correct. And also, Mr. River chimed in and said the equivalent of "Sounds OK to me." when it wasn't.
I also found it interesting that some RME DACs take 32 bits in and truncate it to 24 bits without dither. About what I would expect of a second tier vendor.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
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