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In Reply to: RE: Merging HAPI as digital transport posted by transf on October 28, 2014 at 19:41:08
It is obvious to me that USB is going to be phased out manufacturers come to terms with it's limitations. Ethernet or some variation is the future.All of the band aids like USB purifiers and freakish USB cables will seem so quaint when we look back.
Interesting. Curious as to pricing, although this is clearly a pro audio/studio product.
Edits: 10/29/14Follow Ups:
A "computer" of some sort is required to implement the required protocols over Ethernet. (I put quotes in so as to try to avoid revisiting an earlier debate over terminology.) This "computer" will need to connect via some means to the actual DAC circuitry (e.g. digital logic possibly including DSP, clock, digital to analog switches, IV and analog output buffer). The "computer" will likely be a system on a chip (SOC) and it will connect to the DAC via some standard method, which may be I2S or may be USB. The firmware for this computer will probably be burned into the SOC's flash memory, and possibly subject to being updated.
So introducing Ethernet isn't really changing anything when it comes to noise and jitter, all the same "computer" issues will apply between the SOC and the DAC, as Thorsten points out. For studio use there are obvious benefits in terms of flexibility, but these probably won't apply for many audiophiles who have a single high-end system. How good the sound quality is ultimately will depend on the quality of implementations, e.g. what's the programming in the SOC, how are the power and ground handled, etc... In particular, based on past experience, I would be surprised if the clock implementations didn't turn out to be worse than with previous methods, at least in initial product releases.
tl;dr
The devil is in the details.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I understand what your saying completely.
But my observation had more to do with ergonomics, and sound of course, than the nuts and bolts and idiosyncrasies of the implementation. In other words, listeners with high end file playback systems will at one point not be connecting sources to DACs with USB, but via Ethernet, either via a network, or directly.
I think more and more listeners want hard drives and laptops out of their listening environments.
Hi,
> It is obvious to me that USB is going to be phased out manufacturers
> come to terms with it's limitations. Ethernet or some variation is
> the future.
Hardly.
Ethernet has by far more limitations (mainly throughput) than USB/Firewire in their latest versions. For 2 to 8 Channel Playback even at 768kHz USB2 does splendidly, incidentally.
In Pro Audio Ethernet got a boost from the AES67 standard, but sadly USB3 kills anything you can do on AES67 for throughput, number of channels etc. But few studio's care about sample rates past 96kHz so the limitations of Ethernet/AES67 are not so bad, they get enough channels from Gigabit Ethernet at 96kHz, it would be different for DXD or DSD256, never mind anything faster..
Merging Tech makes really good gear, but if you want to add DA Cards to a HAPI - they only come in 8-Channel packs. Generally studio gear and HiFi are uncomfortable bedfellows. Levels differ and many other areas are sufficiently divergent.
> All of the band aids like USB purifiers and freakish USB cables
> will seem so quaint when we look back.
Maybe, if Ethernet becomes dominant you can be sure there will be many Ethernet Band Aid's to deal with the problems and limitations inherent to Ethernet.
You must remember, everything that is re-purposed for a use not originally intended will have problems and limitations in the non-original application.
> Interesting. Curious as to pricing, although this is clearly a pro
> audio/studio product.
Pricing can be found. Compared to some High End gear out there it is pretty fair. But the unit is modular, so you buy the mainframe and add option modules.
Ciao T
At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to untolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?
There is a very obvious limitation in case of USB: cable length 5m max.
A nuisance at the home occasionally, prohibitive in a studio.
With Ethernet you don't have this problem.
You can reduce the amount of analog cable substantially by replacing them by a single CAT cable.
Cost and flexibility is where AES67 style protocol is about.
At the home I do think the network solution (streaming) is by far the most popular in market share be it DLNA or Airplay.
The Well Tempered Computer
Hi,
> There is a very obvious limitation in case of USB: cable length 5m max.
Not really.
There are many possible solutions to the length limit. When AMR made a music servers for our dealers and distributors (not for retail sale, strictly to help them demo our USB input equipped CD-Players and DAC's) from generic touch-screen PC Hardware, we included a 20m active USB cable with the setup.
As I said before, there is no silver bullet in Firewire, Ethernet, USB, SPDIF, AES-EBU or Wifi for transmitting digital audio. Each one carries challenges, limitations and compromises and needs to be implemented well, with a view to what matters in Audio.
Ciao T
At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to untolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?
Are POWERED USB Extensions not allowed?
Bad? Good?
Too much is never enough
There are excellent solutions:
http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/HW/USB_Extender.htm
As long as you talk master-slave it will do but it remains peer to peer.
You always have to run a dedicated wire.
A LAN is far more flexible
The Well Tempered Computer
This is exactly correct. No amount of techno blather can change the reality of where the market is going.
Hi Thorsten.
Thanks for the post.
"Hardly."
It is starting already. It won't happen over night. But once the unicorn format of DSD, everybody's phantom darling is decoupled from USB, it will accellorate.
"Merging Tech makes really good gear, but if you want to add DA Cards to a HAPI - they only come in 8-Channel packs. Generally studio gear and HiFi are uncomfortable bedfellows. Levels differ and many other areas are sufficiently divergent."
Thanks for this info. And I agree.
"Maybe, if Ethernet becomes dominant you can be sure there will be many Ethernet Band Aid's to deal with the problems and limitations inherent to Ethernet."
Really? I have not seen any Ethernet band aids yet, and its been used in audio for 10 years +.
"You must remember, everything that is re-purposed for a use not originally intended will have problems and limitations in the non-original application."
And that applies ESPECIALLY to USB and foxxcon computers.
"Pricing can be found. Compared to some High End gear out there it is pretty fair. But the unit is modular, so you buy the mainframe and add option modules."
Thanks.
While I have you..quick question on the iFi Micro iDSD. Curious about the the decision to use the OTG USB connection?
Hi,
> It is starting already. It won't happen over night. But once the
> unicorn format of DSD, everybody's phantom darling is decoupled
> from USB, it will accellorate.
We will see.
For now the Platforms I have tested are not very appealing. I suspect Merging uses the BridgeCo Network Processor, this is pretty decent, but not cheap and a pretty heavy duty System on a Chip (SoC) computer in itself.
In the Pro Audio market place the compliance with AES67 (so easy interoperability with other manufacturers gear) and the ability to use very long cables clearly counts.
How relevant these are for the home audio marketplace - we will see. The market will decide. If prior occasions are anything to judge by, it will decide for the lowest common denominator.
Ciao T
At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to untolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?
Price depends on the configuration
The Well Tempered Computer
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