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In Reply to: RE: Explanation of Digital Noise posted by Sprezza Tura on October 24, 2014 at 09:31:30
reads to me like an endorsement article for the product
Follow Ups:
Fred,
Was the technical description of digital noise incorrect? I've had a number of designers e-mail me that they thought his explanation was very good; especially for people who don't have a technical background.
If you are having a problem with CG, don't take it out on me. He has nothing to do with my work.
It's fine but not reveal anything that we don't know about.
The way that it has been integrated into the article sounds like an endorsement of the product.
The principles apply to all mains isolation products.
But to imply that you spend $4000 on an isolators and then have to spend over $1000 on a cable to 'improve' things is off putting.
"But to imply that you spend $4000 on an isolators and then have to spend over $1000 on a cable to 'improve' things is off putting."
Why should it put you off? If don't want to spend that kind of money, you don't have to. I just reviewed a product. Nothing more. I didn't say that readers have to own one of these things to have a good system.
And remember this, the writer of the technical description had no input as to how the article was laid out or written. I was just looking for a scientific explanation of digital noise.
I have reviewed a number of very expensive DACs. I don't feel my life is worthless unless I own one of these things.
It means that the $4000 isolator isn't doing the job of isolating!
I don't follow what you are saying. The $4000 isolator does its job, but is focused on digital noise. Unless you are using a power re-generator, most power conditioners won't deal with this high frequency noise.
So, what is the cable doing?
The isolator needs pre filtering of the mains to work?
What are the isolator outputs with and without the cable?
The isolator doesn't need prefiltering. They were showing that some of their cables also filter to a limited extent. The AC cables are a separate discussion.
The way it is put, who knows what is necessary? If the cable is a separate issue, this should have been made clear.
The DPC-6 doesn't come with an AC cord. What I did Fred was to describe what Shunyata had sent me for the review. It was a mid priced cable in their line, but seemed to be more than adequate for the job.
In retrospect, perhaps I should have made this business with the AC cord more clear.
Wow! I just checked out the comments sections..Fred/Fmak really got into it with Caelin Gabriel of Shunyata...busting out the popcorn.
He does it in another rather dead forum; I don't generally respond.
ST, that was not Caelin Gabriel. CG is a regular poster at AudioStream.
I find that hard to believe "CG"...a Shunyata review...but I will take your word for it.
SMH
I googled SMH and got
Market Vectors Semiconductor ETF!
No idea what it says.
Sorry,
Shaking my head...
He's a friend of mine.
Another thing I forgot to mention Fred. The writer wished to remain anonymous and not get involved with audiophile forums.
The man is a Geenieus!
Actually, he is well respected in his field. That's why I asked for his help.
I was not being sarcastic. He is known in his field, and even more brilliant for avoiding audiophile forums.
Like I've said before ST, we are real ball breakers in this forum :)
"Like I've said before ST, we are real ball breakers in this forum :)"
Not all...
I really think it is worth reading. I think it is crazy to think just because one reads the article they will immediately drop 4 grand. It is totally silly to think everyone here is sheep. There is advertizing every where we go. Do we really need sound check to do this every time. This is not 1940...How about every time he posts we post MORON ALERT!!! If there really was an issue (and there is not)the mod would say something. This is why allot of people will not post here.
Thanks for the article Steve.
.
OK guys. Let me settle a few things. I asked a friend that had no connection to Shunyata whatsoever to write a technical description of what digital noise is. He could care less about Shunyata and doesn't own any of their products.
I then tried to describe what digital noise sounds like in our systems.
After that, I described what I heard with the product.
In answer to ST's comments about Shunyata being a cult:
I have 2 things to say.
1. Shunyata is very upfront about what they are doing in the DCP-6. I asked another engineer friend what he thought. He felt that the product was based on sound engineering principles. Naturally, he couldn't comment on the sound.
2. I packed up all the Shunyata gear and listened to my system. Lets just say I really missed the DPC-6.
You guys forget that without manufacturers, there is no hobby for most of us.
Fair enough.But then would ask the question, why did you pack it up? You have had no problem in the past spending money on all sorts of tranquility bases, power products, DACs, etc.
Secondly, Shunyata has been around, which means they are not selling snake oil, but I won't do business with a company that churns their product line as frequently as they do.
They have introduced no less 6 or 7 cable lines in the last three years, with products appearing and disappearing in their line up, with a throw it against the wall and see what sticks approach. IMO, and that is all it is, my opinion, 50% of the appeal of their products is in the physical presentation. Those garden hose power cables impress insecure audiophiles to no end.
Edits: 10/24/14
OK, you are right about Shunyata updating constantly. But that is their business decision.
And yes, I am looking into acquiring the DPC-6. Funny thing about reviewing; I don't feel compelled to purchase everything I like. But I do like the DPC-6.
I always pack the stuff up to get it out of the house. Keeps the wife happy. But when I really miss a product, then I reconsider.
Ok, well I enjoyed your reply. My wife never ever complains about hifi bless her soul unless their are boxes laying around.
Shunyata as a private business in entitled to do what ever they like, charge what ever prices they like, and churn product lines to their hearts content. No argument there.
I see it as abuse of the customer base, and not standing behind products. It seems to be this is a classic example of a sales cycle on a product dying out then put something new out to reignite sales. There are no new cable design breakthroughs every 6 months.
Although Fmak's views are a bit extreme, he has a point in that if it takes thousands of dollars of add on products, and lets be clear, no musical signals pass through these units, something has gone wrong with the hobby. The last picture I saw of your system was very Rube Goldberg with all the add ons. Its your system, don't get me wrong, but I have aimed for zen like simplicity and have achieved it IMO.
It's not a question of addons and cost, but a question of getting basics right prior to evaluating and using an add on.
Otherwise you never know what it is that is enhancing (or better changing)SQ.
I have expensive add ons, but only after doing my best to have the 'best' mains supply etc. in the system. For example, I use an isolation transformer, custom made and designed by myself, before even feeding a regenerator or isolation filter. Then I listen and measure, with and without. This is why I know that mains harmonic distortions are BAD.
"It's not a question of addons and cost, but a question of getting basics right prior to evaluating and using an add on."
Have to agree.
Would that you were right...
Rick
It's not a question of musical signals passing thru but a case of harmonic and intermodulation signals passing to and from the mains into the signal path
"It's not a question of musical signals passing thru but a case of harmonic and intermodulation signals passing to and from the mains into the signal path"
Well... I'm not convinced of that. While I agree that power harmonics are often problematic I believe that having the power system as a partial signal path is also.
However, what I was speaking to in this case is that at the least the signal modulates the power input because it's output is encoded via varying energy delivery.
Rick
2.3GHz Satellite connected to mains degrades sound; 6% thd in London on the mains degrades sound; pulling broadband modem from mains improves sound.
In my 3 systems.
Oh I agree with you Fred, I suspect most of our gear has an insufficient PSSR to fend off today's environment. Maybe even yesterday's but at least at my place the line now looks gross. I'll do a recheck one of these day as it's been a few years since I eyeballed it but I doubt it's improved... I'll send send you a picture but with adequate warning that you can avoid looking at it near mealtime. Here in the Wild West, the land of entrepreneurs, loose laws and capacitor input power supplies, we all want our's off the top...
But my point was that it's impossible to not add to the misery with our stereos. Any device whose power requirements fluxuate with a signal will modulate the power input. "Voltage sources" are an ideal, a limit, not something that really exists except by definition. In addition actual baseband signals also couple along the same paths causing no end of grief.
I think line-powered audio gear has an especially tough row to hoe because the power fundamental and all of it's significant harmonics are in-band. And the users happen to be equipped with very keen sensors that can detect oddities down into the noise floor if they are uncorrelated with the signal.
But it's a lot better hobby than watching football on TV...
Rick
I will be reviewing another power conditioner next. I have discovered that "power" is a very real issue with our components. I wish some of the manufacturers of our gear would take it more seriously.
As for my system, the Synergistic Transporter with all its leads for the active shields always draws comments. But it sounds very good and I'm having fun. So what the heck.
This reminds me of my former Levinson gear; the 33H amps and 32 preamp. The 32 preamp had its own DC power re-generator. The 33H also had a power re-generator for the voltage gain boards. They took power very seriously in those days.
They should nowadays.
Some of my posts have been a result of 'expert inmates' saying here that all one needs is a MAC Mini and the 'right' software for audio nirvana. They actually know better and this is reflected in some of their products.
Totally different story at Computer Audiophile.
I have just bought a Teradak ATX linear thru their group buy. Saves the hassle of cabling up myself and I am quite confident that I can improve on their ripple specs.
Like I stated in my review, many people get used to listening with this noise and accept it.
Enjoy your new purchase.
No, many people get used to listening to MUSIC, and accept it. Looking for problems is what makes audiophiles the most miserable creatures.
''many people get used to listening with this noise and accept it.''
This is no longer high resolution music, just a money dump.
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