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I had an engineer friend write an explanation of what is digital noise in my review of the Hydra DPC-6. I thought some inmates might find this interesting.
Follow Ups:
Blue Circle has a poor mans version I checked out @RMAF.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue75/blue_circle.htm
I should have mine next week. The use of capacitance filtering on digital components is easily heard and/or seen on audio/video components. The electrical networks that power
audio systems offer vastly improved sound performance by proper filtration directly in front of digital audio components. This includes sources like the Mac mini and it's connected hard drive as well as dacs. Yes you can rip, remove, & replace the internal power supplies but, you can filter the stock units and get similar results.
The question comes down to, pretty case that sits in rack, or effective component that hides away behind rig? I wouldn't build a serious rig without such consideration. Moderninity has
brought complexities into the electrical network that work against optimal audio reproduction.
Clean it up and put a smile on your face...!
I found the noise explanation interesting. To me it sounds as if your buddy has a great understanding about the issues that are likely the root cause of many posts on this forum.About the only thing I'd disagree with is the idea we'd be so upset if manufacturers of audio gear were to make their products more immune and pass the resulting cost on in the form of higher priced gear. I'd argue that in most instances the bill of materials cost of the filtering required in each case is relatively insignificant, probably less than 5% of total in most cases, and well appointed design engineering team will choose optimal filtering/shielding etc quickly helping keep costs of development low. The real cost would be incurred leaving non engineering audiophiles to solve the problems on their own. By the time a non engineer finds the solution, if it ever happens, chances are there was much money/time spent on wasted attempts and it's likely each solution is not optimized as well as it could be.
Edits: 10/25/14
"The real cost would be incurred leaving non engineering audiophiles to solve the problems on their own."
Amen!
Especially true since the only specification that they "understand" is price and all real audiophiles know that it needs to be maximized. No matter how good a job the factory does it sucks if it was done intelligently and cost efficiently.
Rick
.
Steve,
In the future, you might consider asking us if it OK to write something before it gets published. :~)
Alan
This is a very real challenge, to put inductance/transformers in series in the AC line and not impact dynamics. If they have accomplished this, my hats off to them. These types of filters are usually only useful for computers, disk arrays etc., and not great for DACs or USB converters/network renderers. This one might actually work. Sounds like they understand the problem and may have gone the extra nine yards.
The issue seems to me to be whether the effects Mercman heard are general or specific to his setup. It seems difficult to tune a filter system with inductors to a generalised improvement for all or many systems.
I am curious as to whether the carbon fibre tubes are there to add perceived value, or whether they serve a technical purpose on top of this.
Well before the 70s, Stan Curtis in UK published articles on the tuning of amps and preamps using deliberatively undersized power transformers. It is also well known that by bypassing rectifier diodes to suppress hf transients, one can improve the sound of audio systems. The isolator in question is no exception, although it's 'optimisation' may take some doing.
$4000 + $1200 cable, I'd have to have a prolonged listen to establish credibility.
ps: I can buy an Accuphase or PS audio regenerator for this, bearing in mind that one still needs to separate analog from digital equipment connected to it. I use up to 3 or 4 if I play vinyl.
Well before the 70s, Stan Curtis in UK published articles on the tuning of amps and preamps using deliberatively undersized power transformers.
Apologies if I have the details wrong (it was over 30 years ago) but, as I recall it, Curtis let slip in a letter to Hi-Fi News that an amp he developed for Rotel in the 1970s had, by design, a PSU that resonated at the same frequency (90Hz?) as one of the open strings of a bass guitar. It went on to gain a reputation for being excellent for rock music.
See link for more on Curtis's interesting career.
publish letters or articles on tuning power supply to voice his amplifiers. This was what I was referring to, from memory.
1. The price is more reasonable than £1 = $1
2. There is local service
A product like this is specific to one's system. Perhaps your computers with linear power supplies and hard drives would not benefit. I agree, I would never purchase anything like this without trying it first. Also, the price is US dollars. In the UK, the price is probably at least 30 % more.All a reviewer can do is try the product and listen. I liked it enough to want to keep it.
I noticed that the $5000 Triton is 5500 pounds in the UK or $8848.00.
Edits: 10/25/14
If I were spending this kind of money, I would buy a Plasmatron from Chris VenHaus. VHAudio.com. This thing really works for digital. Not a small improvement either.
Where have you heard it? Has it been reviewed? I went to VHAudio.com to see a picture and description. It comes off there like one of those snake oil too-good-to-be-true(except for price) items, but I want to keep an open mind, so tell me more if you can.
Okay, here's the scoop: I used one at a show because Chris came in the room and lent one to us. The two exhibitors in the room (one myself) were so impressed with the improvement that we both bought one. Now I never listen to digital without it.It is different than any other AC power conditioner. I believe it drops the AC voltage a tiny bit and uses that headroom to regulate the voltage. It is an AC voltage regulator. You can see the Thyratron tubes pulsing at certain times during the day when the power is fluctuating more. It is quite a light show and makes the digital sound so much better, improving dynamics, clarity and liveness.
Steve N.
Edits: 10/26/14
"It is different than any other AC power conditioner."
Which I take to mean different in effect. How can you resist trying to measure and understand the mechanism? It may not be subtle at all...
Rick
The units contain 2 Thyratrons presumably as rectifiers of sorts.
The name Plasmatron appears to have been picked to sound hitech. Amongst other things, a Plasmatron can be:
''https://www.vki.ac.be/.../71-12...
Von Karman Institute for Fluid Dynamics
The Plasmatron is a high enthalpy facility in which a jet of plasma is generated in a test chamber kept at sub-atmospheric pressure (between 5 and 200 mbar).''
I mean to ask both about the function each performs, how they differ and how one would use an AC voltage regulator like Plasmatron with a linear power supply.
nfm
Shunyata is a cult. This is a borderline infomercial.
reads to me like an endorsement article for the product
Fred,
Was the technical description of digital noise incorrect? I've had a number of designers e-mail me that they thought his explanation was very good; especially for people who don't have a technical background.
If you are having a problem with CG, don't take it out on me. He has nothing to do with my work.
It's fine but not reveal anything that we don't know about.
The way that it has been integrated into the article sounds like an endorsement of the product.
The principles apply to all mains isolation products.
But to imply that you spend $4000 on an isolators and then have to spend over $1000 on a cable to 'improve' things is off putting.
"But to imply that you spend $4000 on an isolators and then have to spend over $1000 on a cable to 'improve' things is off putting."
Why should it put you off? If don't want to spend that kind of money, you don't have to. I just reviewed a product. Nothing more. I didn't say that readers have to own one of these things to have a good system.
And remember this, the writer of the technical description had no input as to how the article was laid out or written. I was just looking for a scientific explanation of digital noise.
I have reviewed a number of very expensive DACs. I don't feel my life is worthless unless I own one of these things.
It means that the $4000 isolator isn't doing the job of isolating!
I don't follow what you are saying. The $4000 isolator does its job, but is focused on digital noise. Unless you are using a power re-generator, most power conditioners won't deal with this high frequency noise.
So, what is the cable doing?
The isolator needs pre filtering of the mains to work?
What are the isolator outputs with and without the cable?
The isolator doesn't need prefiltering. They were showing that some of their cables also filter to a limited extent. The AC cables are a separate discussion.
The way it is put, who knows what is necessary? If the cable is a separate issue, this should have been made clear.
The DPC-6 doesn't come with an AC cord. What I did Fred was to describe what Shunyata had sent me for the review. It was a mid priced cable in their line, but seemed to be more than adequate for the job.
In retrospect, perhaps I should have made this business with the AC cord more clear.
Wow! I just checked out the comments sections..Fred/Fmak really got into it with Caelin Gabriel of Shunyata...busting out the popcorn.
He does it in another rather dead forum; I don't generally respond.
ST, that was not Caelin Gabriel. CG is a regular poster at AudioStream.
I find that hard to believe "CG"...a Shunyata review...but I will take your word for it.
SMH
I googled SMH and got
Market Vectors Semiconductor ETF!
No idea what it says.
Sorry,
Shaking my head...
He's a friend of mine.
Another thing I forgot to mention Fred. The writer wished to remain anonymous and not get involved with audiophile forums.
The man is a Geenieus!
Actually, he is well respected in his field. That's why I asked for his help.
I was not being sarcastic. He is known in his field, and even more brilliant for avoiding audiophile forums.
Like I've said before ST, we are real ball breakers in this forum :)
"Like I've said before ST, we are real ball breakers in this forum :)"
Not all...
I really think it is worth reading. I think it is crazy to think just because one reads the article they will immediately drop 4 grand. It is totally silly to think everyone here is sheep. There is advertizing every where we go. Do we really need sound check to do this every time. This is not 1940...How about every time he posts we post MORON ALERT!!! If there really was an issue (and there is not)the mod would say something. This is why allot of people will not post here.
Thanks for the article Steve.
.
OK guys. Let me settle a few things. I asked a friend that had no connection to Shunyata whatsoever to write a technical description of what digital noise is. He could care less about Shunyata and doesn't own any of their products.
I then tried to describe what digital noise sounds like in our systems.
After that, I described what I heard with the product.
In answer to ST's comments about Shunyata being a cult:
I have 2 things to say.
1. Shunyata is very upfront about what they are doing in the DCP-6. I asked another engineer friend what he thought. He felt that the product was based on sound engineering principles. Naturally, he couldn't comment on the sound.
2. I packed up all the Shunyata gear and listened to my system. Lets just say I really missed the DPC-6.
You guys forget that without manufacturers, there is no hobby for most of us.
Fair enough.But then would ask the question, why did you pack it up? You have had no problem in the past spending money on all sorts of tranquility bases, power products, DACs, etc.
Secondly, Shunyata has been around, which means they are not selling snake oil, but I won't do business with a company that churns their product line as frequently as they do.
They have introduced no less 6 or 7 cable lines in the last three years, with products appearing and disappearing in their line up, with a throw it against the wall and see what sticks approach. IMO, and that is all it is, my opinion, 50% of the appeal of their products is in the physical presentation. Those garden hose power cables impress insecure audiophiles to no end.
Edits: 10/24/14
OK, you are right about Shunyata updating constantly. But that is their business decision.
And yes, I am looking into acquiring the DPC-6. Funny thing about reviewing; I don't feel compelled to purchase everything I like. But I do like the DPC-6.
I always pack the stuff up to get it out of the house. Keeps the wife happy. But when I really miss a product, then I reconsider.
Ok, well I enjoyed your reply. My wife never ever complains about hifi bless her soul unless their are boxes laying around.
Shunyata as a private business in entitled to do what ever they like, charge what ever prices they like, and churn product lines to their hearts content. No argument there.
I see it as abuse of the customer base, and not standing behind products. It seems to be this is a classic example of a sales cycle on a product dying out then put something new out to reignite sales. There are no new cable design breakthroughs every 6 months.
Although Fmak's views are a bit extreme, he has a point in that if it takes thousands of dollars of add on products, and lets be clear, no musical signals pass through these units, something has gone wrong with the hobby. The last picture I saw of your system was very Rube Goldberg with all the add ons. Its your system, don't get me wrong, but I have aimed for zen like simplicity and have achieved it IMO.
It's not a question of addons and cost, but a question of getting basics right prior to evaluating and using an add on.
Otherwise you never know what it is that is enhancing (or better changing)SQ.
I have expensive add ons, but only after doing my best to have the 'best' mains supply etc. in the system. For example, I use an isolation transformer, custom made and designed by myself, before even feeding a regenerator or isolation filter. Then I listen and measure, with and without. This is why I know that mains harmonic distortions are BAD.
"It's not a question of addons and cost, but a question of getting basics right prior to evaluating and using an add on."
Have to agree.
Would that you were right...
Rick
It's not a question of musical signals passing thru but a case of harmonic and intermodulation signals passing to and from the mains into the signal path
"It's not a question of musical signals passing thru but a case of harmonic and intermodulation signals passing to and from the mains into the signal path"
Well... I'm not convinced of that. While I agree that power harmonics are often problematic I believe that having the power system as a partial signal path is also.
However, what I was speaking to in this case is that at the least the signal modulates the power input because it's output is encoded via varying energy delivery.
Rick
2.3GHz Satellite connected to mains degrades sound; 6% thd in London on the mains degrades sound; pulling broadband modem from mains improves sound.
In my 3 systems.
Oh I agree with you Fred, I suspect most of our gear has an insufficient PSSR to fend off today's environment. Maybe even yesterday's but at least at my place the line now looks gross. I'll do a recheck one of these day as it's been a few years since I eyeballed it but I doubt it's improved... I'll send send you a picture but with adequate warning that you can avoid looking at it near mealtime. Here in the Wild West, the land of entrepreneurs, loose laws and capacitor input power supplies, we all want our's off the top...
But my point was that it's impossible to not add to the misery with our stereos. Any device whose power requirements fluxuate with a signal will modulate the power input. "Voltage sources" are an ideal, a limit, not something that really exists except by definition. In addition actual baseband signals also couple along the same paths causing no end of grief.
I think line-powered audio gear has an especially tough row to hoe because the power fundamental and all of it's significant harmonics are in-band. And the users happen to be equipped with very keen sensors that can detect oddities down into the noise floor if they are uncorrelated with the signal.
But it's a lot better hobby than watching football on TV...
Rick
I will be reviewing another power conditioner next. I have discovered that "power" is a very real issue with our components. I wish some of the manufacturers of our gear would take it more seriously.
As for my system, the Synergistic Transporter with all its leads for the active shields always draws comments. But it sounds very good and I'm having fun. So what the heck.
This reminds me of my former Levinson gear; the 33H amps and 32 preamp. The 32 preamp had its own DC power re-generator. The 33H also had a power re-generator for the voltage gain boards. They took power very seriously in those days.
They should nowadays.
Some of my posts have been a result of 'expert inmates' saying here that all one needs is a MAC Mini and the 'right' software for audio nirvana. They actually know better and this is reflected in some of their products.
Totally different story at Computer Audiophile.
I have just bought a Teradak ATX linear thru their group buy. Saves the hassle of cabling up myself and I am quite confident that I can improve on their ripple specs.
Like I stated in my review, many people get used to listening with this noise and accept it.
Enjoy your new purchase.
No, many people get used to listening to MUSIC, and accept it. Looking for problems is what makes audiophiles the most miserable creatures.
''many people get used to listening with this noise and accept it.''
This is no longer high resolution music, just a money dump.
Stop the hidden marketing!!
Buy audio products that can cope with a little noise here and there.
Most of todays quality devices have noise filtering included.
If done right there shouldn't be the need for your marketed gadgets.
Beside that you can write a book that explains noise.
But that wouldn't explain the particular problems you're
facing in your own system. These generic explanations won't
help anybody, except the manufacturer as marketing message.
If you want to know about noise, just open Wikipedia.
Enjoy.
Nonsense. The information in the review is very relevant. Why don't you provide a link to the specific information in the review to help educate us.
Not there and just a question direct at my comments.
You gotta be kidding!
the main text, then there is no indication that it was written by anyone else but you.
If some of the text is by someone else as you may be saying, then it is common in publication to attribute the relevant sections to the author via a Reference footnote.
I did state that I didn't write it in the review. Talk about speed reading.
Steve,
Next time make sure you use APA format with proper citations!!! :)
but the 'explanation' is not specific to the product but a general statement of why noise, digital or otherwise, can affect audio replay SQ.
Enjoy your weekend.
Talk about speed reading.
Er, no, speed reading is reading quickly; this is a case of reading carelessly.
Besides, from the style, I'd wager I have a fair idea who your friend is.
D
I guess it's quite obvious why he wanted to remain anonymous. Only Lucy knows his true identity and she isn't talking.
the text actually answered the question that CG put to me about mains harmonic distortion effects on SQ.
Thanks for reading my review Fred.
I thought some inmates might find this interesting.
Well, this one did even if he is looking forward to a weekend's home leave. Nothing radically new there, of course, but all explained very well (easier said than done).
And the review ends up with a ticking off from fmak - what's not to like?
See you Monday - the bus into town is just leaving . . .
D
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