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In Reply to: RE: The pictures of the Aries have been posted here posted by Sordidman on October 17, 2014 at 19:25:59
"Wrong conclusions about the internal components"
Are you joking??? If you look at it, it is in no way a hi end design. It is just a tablet in pretty dress. He is not going to say anything about it. smh... Enough already...
Follow Ups:
uh no.....
Are you the moderator?
My claim is that it is different: and that is most true.
My claim also is that it is more high-end than a commercial, mult-purpose, computer main-board, - which is also true.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
"Are you the moderator?"
I do not think I said that..
"My claim is that it is different: and that is most true.
My claim also is that it is more high-end than a commercial, mult-purpose, computer main-board, - which is also true."
This is a total waste... They are the same, but you will never, or do not want to know. A mother board is a mother board. When you see an audio motherboard please tell us...
Bob, you must know that each brand and issue of motherboard is different.
I tend to like using the same brand and issue for general use because I can migrate w/o hassle. But going Gigabyte to Intel on XP with the same HDD? Different ball game.
"Bob, you must know that each brand and issue of motherboard is different."
Hi Fred,
Yes actually I do. I was making the comment in an attempt to eventually to get the streamer guys to think regarding the "boards" in their pleasure devices.
Slots, ports or the lack of them, does not make a good board, or bad board for audio (as you also already know) and IMO.
The boards they they are using are nothing special. Often off the shelf, an even if custom as in the Aries, still using mainstream parts.
The Intel server board I am using is a good board. The board you are using is a good board also. As you know because it is kind of dumb it can successfully be used with multi-rail linear supplies. Something that cannot be done with many boards.
1. (if you're referring to me) I am not a streamer guy.
I am running a MAC Mini. Sprezza also, is BOTH.
2. Slots, ports or the lack of them, does not make a good board, or bad board for audio (as you also already know) and IMO.
Unless you've tested, them, - how do you? How can you formulate an opinion about something that you have not tested? (hidden answer spelled out): you can't. In several instances: as seen with other types of mainboards, - removing components from the signal path DOES indeed help SQ. Now how much, and if in this case, - is still speculation: with the specific board the we're talking about: (Aries).
3. ""The boards they they are using are nothing special."" What does that mean? How do you define special? Off of what shelf? Are you talking about the Aries? If so, - then of course you are wrong. The gold plated connectors, and the hard soldered in gold plated SPDIF connector clearly shows that the board is not off the shelf. Is it made by AMD, ASUS, INTEL, AnTec, IMicro: from whom's "shelf" does this come?
If you are on some kind of crazy agendae to prove that all transports sound the same, and that a streaming device is the same, and therefore sounds the same: you really should get your facts straight first.
Why not open up that closed mind and back up your speculation with some experience? Or at least admit that you don't know. This is serious dogma regurgitation. Same thing as the VRDS-NEO. Claiming that the VRDS-NEO sounds the same as all other transports because on your own, you decided that the differences "shouldn't" make enough difference, - so you make your speculation into a certain fact. Why do you have such a huge investment in denigrating another approace? Are you that insecure in the one that you're engaged in?
I find this ironic outside the conversation of mainboards, - in that you "all the same" guys are also turning your commercial computer into an (audio only device) by pulling the fans, installing SSD drives, upgrading the HD cables, and installing linear power supplies, and then adding tweaks.
The best that we can say about the Aries is that we don't know if its mainboard differences make it sound any different, or any better.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
As far as forming opinions, there are primary, secondary, and tertiary sources. These can be used and weighed accordingly.
I am not calling you a streamer guy or saying that all boards sound the same.What I really I wish you could understand is that what I use and what many of the "serious" people are using are nowhere close to commercial computers.
Please read some other boards such as Jplay and CA if you are interested. Many of these systems are as specialized or more specialized than the brand name streamer transports minus the fancy box and name plate.
I think you really might be missing this point of the discussion.
Edits: 10/22/14
The Bryston looks similar to some of the custom music server builds I've seen. Bryston focused on the quality of the SPDIF and AES/EBU outputs whereas many custom designs like CAPSv3 are focused on the quality of the USB output. I believe you can get the same or better SQ with your own build for less money, but you'll have to take the time to do it, and it will be hard to match Bryston's convenience and system integration features such as front panel display, IR remote, trigger inputs/outputs, RS232 control, and web interface. So I don't think it's a bad deal at all. The Bryston will be for people who want a well integrated, well packaged, turnkey solution. A DIY computer based music server will be for people who enjoy the process of building, configuring, learning, and tweaking as much as the final result. I don't see why there needs to be a pissing contest between people who have taken one approach vs. another.
The Auralic Aries is a bit of a different animal. It is a streaming audio renderer and is designed specifically to receive audio streams over the network and output them to a DAC, with only the minimum hardware necessary to do that. It doesn't have internal storage for your music, it doesn't support attached storage, it doesn't access a remote filesystem, it doesn't manage or index a music library. Because it is more limited in function, and the hardware design is more narrowly focused, there is the potential for it to be a better sounding streamer than a custom DIY computer used as a streamer. But I think it's too soon to say whether it's going to deliver.
Hi Dave K:
I found the tone and content of your posts here to be most welcome.
Lots of thoughtful and neutral ideas.
On the Bryston, however, let me clarify a few things. I have talked extensively with the team there that developed and continues to develop the product.
First, their USB output is every bit the focus as is their AES/EBU and SPDIF outputs. As a matter of fact, they just released a BDP-USB, with USB output ONLY < and no soundcard.
Second, they strongly discourage the use of the display and the remote. The remote is really a system remote. There are several excellent control apps for iOS, and Android to control the BDPs. You can use a web browser too.
The product is based on Auraliti's architecture and was designed for local or ethernet file access.
Lastly, the BDP series can be used with internal storage, SS too, if you desire.
I have not needed support but when I monitor the message boards, the level of support is like nothing I have ever seen.
The Aries..yes a different animal but similar. They CLAIM it is not a streamer but it sure as heck is.
BTW, an upcoming firmware will unlock local file playback from directly connected storage.
"The Bryston looks similar to some of the custom music server builds I've seen. Bryston focused on the quality of the SPDIF and AES/EBU outputs whereas many custom designs like CAPSv3 are focused on the quality of the USB output. I believe you can get the same or better SQ with your own build for less money, but you'll have to take the time to do it, and it will be hard to match Bryston's convenience and system integration features such as front panel display, IR remote, trigger inputs/outputs, RS232 control, and web interface. So I don't think it's a bad deal at all. The Bryston will be for people who want a well integrated, well packaged, turnkey solution. A DIY computer based music server will be for people who enjoy the process of building, configuring, learning, and tweaking as much as the final result."
I agree with you 100%!!!
"I don't see why there needs to be a pissing contest between people who have taken one approach vs. another."
Good point, I agree also... This really does not happen to the same degree on other boards... For some reason when anyone talk about something they might not, or want not to understand the conversations here turn to garbage. There is a good thread on CA now regarding fans and RFI. Take a look back at what happened here when the same topic was mentioned.
Forget about audio for a moment. Are all motherboards equally stable? Are they equally tolerant of a sub-par power supply? Do they all overclock the same? Of course not. Just to pick on two fundamental things, consider power and ground. Power regulation has a large effect on performance, and grounding schemes have an effect on noise on the board and noise radiated from the board. I think it's unreasonable to believe that a small amount of CPU activity in the form of background processes will affect digital audio output but fundamental things like power regulation and grounding will not.
""Power regulation has a large effect on performance,""Very true. The main board is down the list, - for sure.
SOTA performance is of course, a different story.
When the team at Esoteric/TEAC thought that they'd try to see and see what happens when they used a much more precise, beefy, and overkill motor: and a magnesium disc clamping mechanism, - they probably weren't sure if it would improve SQ. And certainly that transport wouldn't sound as good if it had a crappy power supply, or the DAC that one used it with was not very good either.
When one moves up into the category of superior playback, removing unnecessary, (and sometimes what appears to be minutiae), components, can yield (however slight), positive results.
Do you think that a Rasberry Pi and the "slightly custom" board that the Bryston uses would sound the same in the same the case, with the same PSU?
Would the Aries sound the same as the Rasberry Pi running off of it's USB outs?
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 10/22/14
"Do you think that a Rasberry Pi"
Why you keep using this as an example. The Pi is not really up to "audiophile" standards IMO.
If you are looking at ARM boards, there are better ones out there. No they would not the same, but if you took a similar class boards a put it in the system, you could obtain similar results. They did not necessarily select the board for it's "audio" qualities.
When the team at Esoteric/TEAC thought that they'd try to see and see what happens when they used a much more precise, beefy, and overkill motor: and a magnesium disc clamping mechanism, - they probably weren't sure if it would improve SQ. And certainly that transport wouldn't sound as good if it had a crappy power supply, or the DAC that one used it with was not very good either.
When one moves up into the category of superior playback, removing unnecessary, (and sometimes what appears to be minutiae), components, can yield (however slight), positive results.
With a design like the VRDS-NEO, I usually wonder whether the engineering team developed an optimum design through experimentation, data gathering, and analysis. Or did they simply try to make it as perfect as they knew how, hoping that it would improve things. The latter approach seems to be common in high end audio, and it usually does yield improvements, but often we can't pin down the specific design decisions that are most responsible for improvement.
Do you think that a Rasberry Pi and the "slightly custom" board that the Bryston uses would sound the same in the same the case, with the same PSU?
Would the Aries sound the same as the Rasberry Pi running off of it's USB outs?
That's the $100000 question. A problem with computer audio is that there are so many variables. You can optimize all kinds of things only to be let down by a grounding issue or one bad component choice.
From what I can tell based on their designs & the component selections visible in pictures, I would expect the Aries to be superior via USB output except in environments with a lot of RFI, in which case the Bryston might be superior. Regarding replacing the mainboard in the Bryston with a Raspberry Pi, I couldn't guess which would be better via USB output, but I'm certain they would have to cut the feature set if they used a Raspberry Pi. Via SPDIF or AES/EBU, it's really not obvious whether the Bryston or Aries would be better, but they have both spent effort trying to improve these outputs relative to what you would get from a typical sound card.
I am assuming that the differences in SQ between these transports are not due to different data being transmitted, or differences in data rate, or errors in transmission of the data. Restated another way, the hypothesis is that all three transports are equivalently functional as data interfaces.
A USB 2.0 cable contains 4 wires: +5V DC, ground, D+, and D-. The data is transmitted as a differential signal on D+/-.
Of these, the ground is probably most important to SQ. The Raspberry Pi is designed to have a floating ground, and from the pictures of the Aries I believe it is too. So no ground loops, but also no low impedance path out of the circuit for RFI. The Bryston, on the other hand, appears to be grounded to the mains equipment ground. Which is better will be system dependent.
Assuming that you're not powering the DAC via USB, the +5V DC output probably has the least impact on SQ because it will only be used by the transport to signal its presence to the DAC, and the DAC may not require it and might even leave it unconnected. The Aries has a dedicated regulator right next to the USB output, the Bryston has a modular MeanWell supply located on a separate power supply board providing +5V to the mainboard, and the Raspberry Pi also has a +5V input. From a design POV, I guess I would give the edge to Aries here because the dedicated regulator would isolate the +5V USB output from anything else on the board using +5V. But I doubt it makes much difference at all with most DACs.
The D+/D- signal lines could be important, and some of the things that might make a difference are clock stability, bandwidth (sharpness of edge transitions), noise, and possibly DC offset if these lines aren't transformer coupled at the receive end. In this case, I would expect the Aries to have an advantage because it has a dedicated high quality clock for the USB output right next to the controller and it looks like the outputs from the USB controller are buffered by line drivers. The Bryston is just using the USB outputs provided by the mainboard and same for the Raspberry Pi; I couldn't guess as to the quality of these.
Of course, all of this is conjecture. The Aries looks to be well designed for the purpose, but all it takes is one bad design decision or component choice to spoil the sound quality.
All it takes for you to look at the picture, - but you....just
can't
bring
yourself
to
do
it
""A mother board is a mother board""
yes, - you can say it twice: but it doesn't change the fact that not all motherboards are the same: or are you trying to say otherwise?
"When you see an audio motherboard please tell us."
I don't need to, - there's one posted above, so is the Rasberri Pi, goodness they're everywhere.... it's raining motherboards. Wait-a-minute, - we're in a drought, everything sounds the same, all of these streamers are just the same as my ASUS LGA2011 dual Xeon. Those aren't gold connectors: the PCI bus & the video port, and USB inputs are invisible.....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 10/20/14
So you are playing music on a dual Xeon board. OK..
no
I am arguing on the internet with people who do not understand basic, deductive logic.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
So you are arguing with your self. Why bring up something unrelated. I do not think you really understand what the difference in board design might have in relation to improvements in sound? Do you?
Let's make believe that having a video port on a board makes a difference... You might think it would... What about no port, but a chip set with video, but no port? Thumbs up, or thumbs down? What really matters?
I am game......
""Why bring up something unrelated""
I am just responding to your post: which of course, was unrelated.
I made the assertion that they are not the same and they are not.
"" I do not think you really understand what the difference in board design might have in relation to improvements in sound?"
(That is a different statement than the fact that the boards are different). So you admit that there are differences? Good! We are making progress.
"""" I do not think you really understand what the difference in board design might have in relation to improvements in sound?"""
I am confident that you do not....
""Let's make believe that having a video port on a board makes a difference""
I do not know, it may or may not: the only way to tell is to listen to the device and compare it. In a typical audiophile design world, removing superfluous components from the single path usually helps. But either or any bit of speculation is just that.
Do you think that gold plated connectors will help SQ?
Do you think that the lack of a PCI bus will help SQ?
Do you think that the lack of fans on the CPU, a hard drive, or a fan in the case will help?
Do you think that the lack of USB inputs, and a multiport USB bus will help?
How would the (yet again), very different, Rasberry Pi mainboard pan out in listening tests? Would the case matter that you install the Pi in make a difference?
If the mainboards are different, (as you now have finally admitted), do they in fact not sound different? What did you think when you compared them?
Why is your speculation "better?"
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
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