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In Reply to: RE: Cannot set up a Computer for audio - get a network streamer posted by Sprezza Tura on October 15, 2014 at 13:02:36
Hi,
> Please have a CLUE about the market before you post this stuff.
I do.
> -SOtM Mini Server: USB Output, DSD, connects to any networked
> device or computer. $449.
Yes, I like this one fine. Fair pricing too.
But it still needs a NAS and a control device. Add them to the bill.
And it still has to deal with networking overheads.
Might still be tempted to use an old leftover cellphone or laptop instead, as I already have them, so they are "free".
In fact, I do, wherever sound quality is of little concern (never would use network streaming anywhere near where it mattered, but fine for background music).
> What don't you get? NOBODY who givea a darn about sonics WANTS
> a screen. Tablet control is MUCH preferred.
Why is tablet control preferred?
Is it because with a tablet you MUST have Wifi on while using an IR remote controled device with it's own screen does not require the use of Wifi or even a network connection and so that solution must be bad?
MY experience is that anything source with Wifi on is game over for sound quality. Just forget it.
Battery powerd cell phones may be an exceptions, but this one is so new, we are still getting handles on what it can and cannot do.
Ethernet wired is also far from great. I only ever use hardwired networks for audio, if I am listening to the music (even background music). Local HDD (ESATA or USB3) much preferred.
And I turn hardwired networks off for serious listening.
Due to the way general purpose OS's work on the network side, running audio from a NAS and controlling it from a Tablet is a safe way of downgrading SQ.
That goes no matter what sort of computer is used (and even if that computer is called "Streamer" or "Blue Ray Player" and not "Mac Mini" or Ültrabook").
Sure, it is convenient though and looks like it keeps the dreaded computer out of the listening room to anyone naive enough.
But at what (s0n1c) c0$t?.
> At many more units from Sonore, Aurender, etc etc.
Yes, there is a flood of streamers. That does not mean they are viable solution in the market.
Are they better than a dedicated optimised computer without Wifi or network based remote control, without pulling data from remote sources via network?
Good question.
Over here, I have not come across one that is, but I mostly evaluate platforms and not specific products.
This may change or not. Time will tell.
For now most streamers I have seen have little to commend them over generic commodity computer hardware, because that is precise what they use and implement with few if any material hardware changes over the commodity options.
Just open them up, look at the IC used and then look up the datasheets and see how much the implementations diverge from the datasheet.
Rest assured, if sales of things become material enough to be worth persuing, you will see one from my direction in 2-3 month (maybe less - we are constantly evaluting the state of the art - me mom, she raise herself no fool).
For now, not worth the effort, based on sales potential.
Again, this may change, just like it did with other things.
Who knows, if I put some effort in it may even end up decent. Then again, if sound quality is the main concern I suspect something like John Brown's SD card player beats anything I know, I intend to get one of them days, as stalking horse. It is just SO darn impractical.
So I may be more tempted to work out the usability kinks out of concepts like that, rather then make another generic "me too streamer" based on cellphone CPU's and OS's that lags behind most PC's correctly implemented or even a Raspberry Pi with an SD Card and wired HID remote (and no network).
Ciao T
At 20 bits, you are on the verge of dynamic range covering fly-farts-at-20-feet to untolerable pain. Really, what more could we need?
Follow Ups:
A big mistake on your part, - IMO.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Wanna take bets on an iFi network streamer/file payer for 2015?
To pinpoint a couple of your distortions..where you claim the NAS and control devices are additional expenses...Nonsense.
I use the same iPad I use for everything else. Eh, one down.
A NAS is absolutely not needed, one can use their home computer running Jriver or any number of DLNA compliant programs. So the SAME hard drives you rip and download to feed your streamers. Those hard drives are there regardless. Second down, next...
And the cherry on top is that my cost for server and playback software...? ZERO.
I use XLD to rip, and MiniMServer to talk the the streamers. FREEWARE.
Ready for your spin, now that we have debunked all the fabricated obstacles you have claimed.
If you had researched for even five minutes all the current products from Marantz, Sonore, Pro-Ject, or even Cambridge Audio you may have been more up to date.
Edits: 10/15/14 10/15/14 10/15/14
I think the point is that the mere presence of a powered up computer, especially if it is on wi-fi, is probably degrading sound quality. It doesn't matter if the computer is doing anything with audio. If it's just running it is creating RFI/EMI, as can easily be demonstrated by using an AM radio. By computer I mean a device that contains a processor of some form. Today this may include cable boxes, TVs, refrigerators, dishwashers, washing machines, furnaces, etc...
The cure for this is to go to the fuse box and turn off all unnecessary circuits. If you have neighbors, go to the main distributor box and pull their main breaker, etc... You get the idea. Just a suggestion, you might find it not so well received.. I'm not saying that I've done it, but then I'm not saying that I haven't done it, either... :-)
Remember, every wire is an antenna. If it's connected to a noisy computer it's a transmitting antenna. If it's connected to an audio product it's a receiving antenna. Even something as rearranging the way two cables cross so they cross at 90 degrees rather than running parallel may make a difference. These differences may or may not be large, but if you are swapping components for evaluation purposes and do not take these factors into consideration you may be making incorrect decisions that seem good today but not next week.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Who said anything about a computer in the vicinity running WiFi?
Folks with streamers have gone that route to GET RID of the computer in the listening room.
In my case, the computer that manages and serves my files, via attached drives is on ethernet only.
A general wifi network is required for phone or tablet control. That stays in the listening position. a good 10 feet away. Let's not get into phantom gremlins.
People use tablets with wi-fi to control streamers. They use them to control other things as well. If the streamer is dumb and depends upon some other computer for control then that computer may need to be controlled by wi-fi.
A streamer is just as much a computer as any other computer, according to the things that it can do to your audio equipment. If the streamer is in your audio room and/or connected to the rest of your audio stack it can degrade the sound. The test for this is to listen to an analog source with the streamer in various situations:
1. unplugged from AC and from preamp
2. plugged into AC but switched off and unplugged from preamp
3. plugged into AC and switched on, connected to file source, but unplugged from preamp,
etc.. Depending on what you hear, other tests will be appropriate.
The reason why I suggested using an analog source is because even an ordinary CD player contains a computer.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
"If the streamer is dumb and depends upon some other computer for control then that computer may need to be controlled by wi-fi."
I have no idea what the above means.
My Mac Mini is on Ethernet. My streamer is on Ethernet. The tablet is on WiFi. Never the twain shall meet.
How do you control what music plays on your streamer and how do you start/pause/stop playback?
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
With the an iPad. Air. As long as your streamer and your NAS, or computer with files is attached to the network, even with just Ethernet, the control apps talk to your router and send the commands.My Mac Mini has WiFi deactivated. as does my streamer.
I am wondering how limited your knowledge of these products are.
I had the set up for years with a Squeezebox Touch. Never used WiFi to stream the files, but controlled playback with a phone.
Edits: 10/16/14
" but controlled playback with a phone. "
Yes, I know how components talk to each other and how the elements of computing can be distributed across a network. I've been doing that since before 1980.
The Touch has a control panel. That's what I meant by "smart". No need for it to talk to anything else except the server. Other devices don't work that way. For example the SOTM running Miksa's NAA software requires HQPlayer running on a PC to create playlists and start/stop/pause playback.
How is your iPad air connected to your streamer? Where is it physically located with respect to your audio stack?
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I am still puzzled by your questions.The iPad air is NOT connected to my streamer. It stays 10 feet away at the listening chair.
It actually "talks" to MiniMstreamer,installed on my Mac Mini , 2 rooms away, which serves the files to streamer, via a router, 150 feet away from all my systems. EVERYTHING is hard wired. The only devices on WiFi in my house are iPads, and occasionally, laptops for work purposes.
I have the SOtM, and all my streamers set up for DLNA.
The point I have been trying to make, and others too, is that these headless solutions are by far the better way to go.
Perhaps this might help:
SELECTABLE OUTPUT MODES
Mode #1 - SqueezeLite Output Mode - This mode works with any Logitech Media Server (LMS) and compatible controllers. This output supports true gapless playback for FLAC, ALAC, WAV, and AIFF. When used with Vortexbox 2.3 you can output PCM and DoD via USB. When used with LMS on your computer or your NAS you can output PCM via USB.Mode #2 - AirPlay Output Mode - This is an AirPlay emulator that utilizes streams sent to it from a compatible player.
Mode #3 - MPD/DLNA Output Mode:
Mode #3a - DLNA Output Mode - This mode utilizes streams from DLNA servers and controllers. Playback has been enhanced and now uses MPD as the renderer. With JRiver, Linn Kinsky, Linn Kazoo, BubbleUPNP and AudioNet as controllers this mode supports true gapless playback for FLAC, ALAC, WAV, and AIFF. DSD/DoP output is supported via USB if your server supports DoP streaming.
Mode #3b - MPD Output Mode - This mode is intended to work with a Vortexbox based music server (Sonore, SOtM, W4S, and Vortexbox) on the home network. When this mode is selected it automatically locates the existing Vortexbox music server and mounts its storage drive for MPD to output PCM and DSD via USB. This mode supports true gapless playback for FLAC, ALAC, WAV, and AIFF.
Mode #4 - HQ Player NAA - This mode is intended to work with Signalyst's HQ Player running on your computer. Digital signal processing is performed by the HQ Player application. This output supports true gapless playback. The processed data is then asynchronously streamed over the network to the Network Audio Adapter (NAA) to output PCM or DSD via USB.
STANDARD FEATURES
The SOtM Mini Server supports gapless playback
The SOtM Mini Server supports PCM output via USB
The SOtM Mini Server supports DSD/DoP output via USB
The SOtM Mini Server supports internet radio and streaming radio services from LMS
The SOtM Mini Server is isolated from noise on the network
The SOtM Mini Server supports the following PCM sample rates: 44.1KHz, 48KHz, 88.2KHz, 96KHz, 176.4KHz, 192KHz, 352.8KHz and 384KHz
The SOtM Mini Server supports the following DSD rates: DSD64 and DSD128
The SOtM Mini Server plays AAC, AIFF, ALAC, FLAC, MP3, and WAV files from HTTP streams
The SOtM Mini Server is controlled via apps on your mobile device
The SOtM Mini Server is based on Sonic Orbiter that is open source (GPL 2)
Edits: 10/16/14 10/16/14 10/16/14
You have an Ethernet cable up to your iPad Mini and to your stream?
Shielded? Cat 5, 6 or 7?
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
UPnP (Universal Plug "n" Play) is a set of protocols that allows a streamer Center to access music files that are stored on a Network Attached Storage device (NAS), or other UPnP compatible music server, to be quickly and easily selected and played.
Essentially the server announces its availability on your home Ethernet network that it can be uses as a renderer (playback device) for music stored on a UPnP-capable server. A control point device (iPad, iPhone, Android tablet, etc) is used to select the streamer as a renderer together with a NAS as a server. The control point device requires an app like PlugPlayer or other control point software for browsing and playlist control.
------------------
Funny for not knowing about networks I have three systems being fed Redbook, 96 Khz, 192 Khz, and DSD music files along with metadata with one set of hard drives.
"Funny for not knowing about networks I have three systems being fed Redbook, 96 Khz, 192 Khz, and DSD music files along with metadata with one set of hard drives."
Making a bunch of computers apparently work together is not the same thing as understanding in detail how they actually work or being able to diagnose which device is malfunctioning when they fail to work. These taska include the ability to understand the specifications on which the network is based.
And here, I'm just talking in the "bits are bits" sense. If you start going beyond this mid-fi level of sound quality then you are in an even more difficult world which no one has yet mastered.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I'm in total agreement with you.
You would be surprised, and I sweat it is true, I know high level IT managers that can't figure out how to get music files on their computers to their stereos via network.
Tony I do not think he understands how a network really works. His streamer is on the network it is not an endpoint as you mentioned can be done with HQplayer, LMS, or with a JPlay two computer setup.regards
Bob
Edits: 10/16/14
Funny, I have PCM files up to 192 Khz and DSD files streaming to three separate systems with one set of hard drives. No dropouts, stuttering, or MIA devices. EVER.I thought the way UPnP works is common knowledge.
I don't want to know anything. I just want my music. And I have it in spades.
As I said, you are concerned with the nuts and bolts far more than the enjoyment.
Edits: 10/16/14
"I don't want to know anything."
OK :)
Tony....do you not understand the iPad simply sends commands to the server software which controls playback on the streamer?Why do you think the iPad or any control device has some direct connection to the streamer. They do not directly communicate in any way.
I'm beside myself.
In NO way does WiFi touch my audio files. My NAS (computer with attached drives) is wired with CAT7, my streamers are wired with CAT7. The control point (tablet/phone) is on WiFi. Since everything is on the same network, the iPad is nothing but a remote control, but it DOES not send direct commands to the streamer, nor does it send it files to play.
Edits: 10/16/14 10/16/14
Thank you for answering my question.
The control device may still affect the sound quality of your audio system. It may do so through its direct radiation, through its power connections (if not on battery) or through its Ethernet cables (even if cat 7 shielded). The test for this is to move the control device out of the room, say right next to the computer that it is controlling. Alternatively, if your Ethernet cable is long enough, you can try moving the control device right next to the audio stack and see what effect this has.
It is not a question of "touching files". The problem is not the "touching" of bits that makes them somehow polluted. The problem comes from pervasive noise from digital circuitry polluting sensitive analog components. It doesn't really matter if a device "touches" the bits or not, provided they are just digital data. On the other hand, if a device "touches" an SPDIF signal or any other "digital" signal that contains audio timing information it is touching more than just the bits.
It is not a matter of theorizing how, or how not, some piece of digital gear may degrade sound quality. It is a matter of conducting listening tests to see what matters and what does not in a particular system.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Tony, I am here to enjoy my life. I simply cannot be bothered with phantom gremlins, real or imagined.
Air conditioning may degrade the sound but I am not going to sit in a puddle of sweat to enjoy music.
I am going to have my iPad at my listening position at all times unless I am listening to a full album then I put it somewhere else simply because I don't want to knock it over.
BTW, I said I was beside myself because I know you are far more erudite than myself....no sarcasm there.
"BTW, I said I was beside myself"
Do you both take turns sitting in the sweet spot during your listing sessions? ;)
Nah, I hog it....his taste in music sucks,
First, what networking overhead? Why do you need a NAS? The Mac Mini which I used for ripping, tagging, downloading, and managing my music library with 2 3TB drives attached IS my NAS. And it is nowhere near my systems.
In the 5+ years I have been on a network architecture I have never, NOT ONCE, EVER had to trouble shoot. When I test new streamers it is simply a matter of unplugging the Ethernet cable and plugging it back in. Then connecting out to the DAC, either with USB, or AES/EBU.
Never ONCE had to worry about playback software, O/S, computer isolation, or any of the nonsense folks here immerse them selves in,
The WiFi has utterly no relationship to the music. The tablet control point uses WiFi to browse the library. THAT IS IT. Some of my streamers do NOT even HAVE WiFi on board like the Bryston.
The VERY BEST part? I stream ONE SET of files to three full systems, with Naim, Bryston, and Simaudio streamers, with a fourth in the works.
You are painting a LOT of inaccurate pictures here. Continuously. And stubbornly.
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