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In Reply to: RE: It's NOT a computer posted by AbeCollins on October 09, 2014 at 19:40:12
Of course, one small clarification, about 1 small portion of the argument matters not....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Follow Ups:
That small clarification based on the information you provided about 1 small portion of the argument matters significantly because.....
- It invalidates your statement the device is NOT a computer.
- You pointed out the fact that is has a PCI slot which means there's a greater than 99% chance the device is a COMPUTER.
Other devices that have PCI slots are PCI expansion chassis to expand the number of PCI slots of a computer. And it's not one of those.
I don't know of other devices other than the two mentioned above that have PCI slots. Maybe someone elso in this forum does.
As best I can tell, it IS a computer.
Just because it happens to have a PCI slot does not change the intention or goal of a multi-faceted, computing machine.
Before it's a computer, it would have to have a GUI, video port, have the capability of loading an OS that is capable of adding & running at least several apps, : including typical internet browsers, Email, word processing etc. it needs HIDs like mice & keyboards, add-on peripheral capability- and on and on....
Is a Squeezebox a computer? No one thinks of that in the same sense that we think of a MAC Mini, or a Dell Optiplex.
That goal, intention, and expectation of what a streamer does is to ONLY play back music, - just like a Squeezebox. The hardware is different on the Sim Audio Mind, but its purpose is the same as a Squeezebox.
JMAC is wrongly trying to assert that when you buy a Sim Audio Mind, - you're buying a mainboard/motherboard that is a computer mainboard. It is not, and it is not the only criteria for DEFINING it to the exclusion of all others. There are elements that ARE similar, but they are mostly different, - both with the mainboard and other components. These devices can only be used for 1 purpose, and only share 1 of the many purposes that we think of when we talk about a computer.
And what about the Sonore? Do we have to call it a computer? It has a custom designed mainboard, that has no PCI slot, (and even fewer of components on the mainboard).
I didn't even mention the other important elements of good SQ, like power supply, SPDIF outs, quality alloy connectors, (in some cases, point-to-point wiring), that are decidedly not a part of the commercial computer paradigm, that are essential to good SQ.
The definition of computer is NOT a PCI slot.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
"The definition of computer is NOT a PCI slot. "
Neither is the definition of what is "good" what you claim it is to be.
Who appointed you arbiter of quality?
I'm not even going to spend the time to read your entire rant. I simply corrected you with FACTUAL information which you seem to have a hard time understanding or maybe you just have a hard time admitting when you are flat out WRONG.
No harm, no foul. Believe what you want.
It is the truth, no matter what either of us believe.
You don't have any grounds to address my points, so you attach a label to what I said & run away.
Fine, but you're wrong
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
The finger pointing here comes from different definitions, particularly a definition based on function vs. a definition based on mechanism. Definitions are social conventions and are arbitrary. It is not a question of "right" or "wrong".
By the way, Internet connected TVs have already been hacked to spy in people. I believe that hackers are working on smart refrigerators. It is only a matter of time before smart light bulbs get hacked. (Smart lights are already in heavy industrial use for theater's and home use is starting.) Any device that can be hacked may expose the internal computing mechanism and thereby provide a computing function for the benefit of a (possibly malevolent) hacker.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
good definitions are less arbitrary.
Agree with you about hacking, it's scary.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
"good definitions are less arbitrary."
Absolutely. There are good definitions and bad definitions, but there are also different purposes. A definition may be good for one purpose and bad for another. If you are a audio consumer you are likely to care about function. If you are an audio designer (or even an advanced audio tweaker) you need knowledge of mechanisms to speed progress to your goal. The definition accorded to "computer" is likely to depend on whether your primariy concern is with function or with mechanism.
In the computer industry there is established terminology. There are many terms to describe computer systems, such as general purpose computers, servers, terminals, thin clients, personal computers, embedded systems, micro controllers, etc... Computer engineers talk in terms of processors and memory. Theoretical computer scientists talk in terms of universal Turing machines, ... You are free to make up whatever terms you want, but if you want to be widely understood, it's probably best to stick with established usage. These "streamers" most likely fall into the category of embedded systems, so long as they are running official firmware.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Thanks....
Do you think of the squeezebox as a computer or as an embedded system?
Largely, - it is my opinion, based on the most often used definitions: when we say "computer" we mean a multifaceted commercial "personal computer" that has HIDs, & does many things: purpose, AND mechanism.
I contend that it is a very small minority who would want to call a streamer a computer, - lest they confuse their audience. We just don't interact with websites, check Email, write letters, book airplane tickets on our Squeezeboxes.
Thanks again for your well reasoned post.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
The users of a squeezebox think of it as a streamer. Those modifying it or integrating it into a network think of it as an embedded system. Here the functions of a computer transport have been divided into two boxes, the squeezebox and the NAS. The NAS (which can be a general purpose PC or an embedded system) stores the files, but it also provides library functions.
Another way to partition into multiple boxes is the approach Miksa has taken with HQPlayer and the Networked Audio Adapater. The player does all the functions required except the actual transport functions of starting and stopping playback and timing the signals sent to the DAC. The networked audio adapter gets a "stream" from the player and times it and sends it on to the DAC. This allows a very low powered device to be located in the audio stack, and isolating the audio stack from ugly noise created by possibly extensive DSP being done in the computer, acoustic noise, etc...
By the way, technically, neither the squeeze box nor the networked audio adapter are really "streamers" because they work on a "pull" basis, requesting blocks of audio as required. This is even true when playing many Internet services which are customized to particular users. Internet radio is a true stream because as a broadcast service it continues at its own pace, regardless of what the listeners are doing. This type of true stream is also needed for interactive voice and video.
To make a concrete discussion, a year ago I got a Raspberry Pi, which consisted of a circuit board, a micro SC card, a small wall wart power supply, a pillbox sized plastic case and some cables. This was not yet a personal computer because it lacked a human interface. However, it came with a two USB ports and an HDMI port. I connected one of the USB ports to a USB keyboard and the HDMI port to my TV set. Now I had a "complete" computer. However, I soon moved the Raspberry Pi to a different room and connected it to my network via its Ethernet connector. This enabled me to log into the command line prompt of the Linux operating system, using my main computer's keyboard and display and the SSH protocol. This enabled me to do software development on this machine to act as an embedded system. Now this device sits on my network running some equipment and I can control and monitor this equipment using a web browser on any of my personal computers. Now the same hardware is obviously an "embedded system" and not a personal computer.
If this sounds confusing, it's because the subject is complicated and difficult for me to explain simply.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
"good definitions are less arbitrary."
But nonsense is still nonsense. Why do you keep trying to conflate the two?
What ARE you talking about?
You said It's NOT a computer.
I said, It IS a computer. Simple FACT.
Done.
when you refuse to address my points
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
"when you refuse to address my points"
See, the problem is, "points" are supposed to have some meaning. When they lack any sort of meaning, it is impossible to address them. That doesn't mean you've "won" the argument, it only means you've posted gibberish that no one can refute, as it is impossible to refute nonsense.
Before it's a computer, it would have to have a GUI, video port, have the capability of loading an OS that is capable of adding & running at least several apps, : including typical internet browsers, Email, word processing etc. it needs HIDs like mice & keyboards, add-on peripheral capability- and on and on....
Is that your point? If so, everything you mentioned above is not a requirement for a computer.
Is a Squeezebox a computer?
Yes. It runs a small embedded processor and OS. But unlike the product being discussed it does not use an 'off the shelf' PC motherboard.
pointless, silly ones.
Pointless silly what's? The FACTS? Can you elaborate?
Z
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
- You said, It's NOT a computer.
- I said, It IS a computer.
- I provided sufficient FACTUAL evidence to back my claim.
FACT: You are wrong.
FACT: I am correct.
Simple. Done.
There are still folks who engage in the false equivalency of mass produced computers (with a commercial O/S pre loaded, display, and multi-purpose architecture) and a purpose built-for audio product.
A 2014 car is a computer too. But it is a purpose built transportation device.
Sure, a purpose built audio product based on mass produced commodity computing..... The same stuff most folks here have been DIYing and tweeking.
Sordidman said, "Its' NOT a computer".
It IS a computer so he is flat out wrong. What's the beef? This is a black and white Yes/No issue. I wasn't arguing the intent of the device, just setting the record straight with factual information.
I'm amazed at how many people here go ballistic when presented with indisputable FACT. ;-)
No, a PCI slot does not make it a commercial computer:in the same sense that people call a multi-purpose device.
A chair is a device made for sitting. That is a great definition of a chair because it excludes all other items & defines ITS PURPOSE!! It could be a good chair, a bad chair, a comfortable chair, etc.
The purpose of the squeezebox is a streamer: it doesn't have a PCI slot. NO ONE calls the Squeezebox a computer.
The Sonore also does not have a PCI Slot: it also is not a computer
The Bryston has the same PURPOSE as the Squeezebox: but it does have a PCI slot
You are simply wrong!
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
You are simply incapable of taking a deep breath and stepping away from the debate?
"You are simply wrong!"
Ouch.
That is a pretty black and white proposition.
Why not take a day or two to step back from what is being said and think about it from the other person's point of view? At worst, you'll come to the conclusion that you are justified in your opinion. But perhaps, just maybe, you'll start to see a glimmer of what the other person is trying to say? This may feel intensely uncomfortable at first, but that is what growing feels like. While that feeling may sting, don't run from it, it's good for you! Eventually you will welcome it because you'll know how efficacious it is at making you a more effective adult.
JE
My assumption: and it may be erroneous..
They're naysayers who are trying to say things like an off the shelf PC sounds as good as a streamer and that streamers are no different. And extrapolating, - that doing things like replacing power supplies in off the shelf computers won't make a difference in SQ.
Thanks,
Cheers,
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Oh, please. Enough with the "naysayer" bullshit.
Just because you refuse to admit that these devices contain computers that are no different than the one you use to browse the Internet, does not mean that anyone has some other motivation for trying to set you straight.
I don't know why that upsets your world-view so much. You really seem to have been take aback by the very knowledgeable responses posted by Dave_K below. Like someone just revealed to you that there is no Santa Claus or something.
"No different than the one you use to browse the Internet"That statement is not true
I would like to extend to you an invitation to read.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 10/11/14
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