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In Reply to: RE: USB cable errors - NOT posted by Ugly on August 27, 2014 at 06:27:34
It seems to me that since some high-end USB audio cable makers do use ferrite chokes on their cables, they are highly unlikely to cause outright 'errors'.
They may slightly alter the sharpness of a leading edge but that is not the same as an 'error', and the overall benefit of the choke may outweigh any slight rounding.
You're right, w/o test equipment I don't think anyone here is qualified to definitively state that a ferrite choke will cause errors.
Follow Ups:
Abe - not all ferrites are the same. They are comprised of different materials with different properties. Some may have the potential of causing errors. Like most things in life, its not black and white.
Understand. Of course not all ferrite chokes are the same and not all will cause errors.
My point, though maybe not entirely clear, manufacturers with the right test gear can verify the effect adding beads has and properly compensate for the negative side effects to ensure the resulting assembly with the bead still meets spec. Without the test gear one would have no way of knowing what affect the bead had or how potential compensations for its affect behaves. As I said I'm just guessing here and you may be 100% correct that for USB band signals the effect is negligible.
I never said anything about ferrites causing errors. It was Gordon who posted and he has more equipment to measure than anyone else who insists on posting pointless speculations.
I suppose the guy who invented Gordons gear had to just guess about how to make it work until a miracle occurred and it started working? Hint: the answer is no. Modern physical theory adequately covers design and understanding of controlled impedance cables for usb even if it is too much a pain for most to bother to pull off manually.
I'm just a little surprised that an inmate here, without the necessary test equipment, would make a blanket statement that ferrite chokes on USB cables cause errors.
"I'm just a little surprised that an inmate here, without the necessary test equipment, would make a blanket statement that ferrite chokes on USB cables cause errors."
Why on earth would that surprise you? That is the epitome of what we are all about. If you can't proudly state that one listen to your new amplifier was enough to know that the sound was being squimmied by the cheap chinese ink used to label the powercord then you just don't have the ears and perception to be an audiophile.
Not only are our men strong, women beautiful and kids above average, our perceptions are honed to the point where we know how good something will sound just by evaluating the data on it's pricetag...
And loving every minute of it! However nutty we may seem, we are the epitomy of sanity compared to football fans...
Rick
Why on earth would that surprise you?
Part of the surprise might be because the inmate in question protested that "I never said anything about ferrites causing errors". If in fact he had, I at least couldn't find where so I concluded, not unreasonably, that he hadn't said anything about ferrites causing data errors.
What he did say was that an Xmos test program was reporting errors (not a ferrite in sight) and that his efforts to find out what the reports meant had not been terribly successful.
A crowd than gathered round to poke sticks through the bars of his (metaphorical) cage and demand loudly what the effect of those data errors on sound quality might be.
How could one possibly answer that? It was all pretty baffling and teeeedious both but it was not, as you rightly suggest, very surprising.
You weren't looking in the right thread. Quite some time ago when I posted about having a ferrite choke on one of my USB cables, the inmate made the blanket statement that they cause USB errors. Not true. This was a while back about the same time said inmate was suggesting defragmenting SSDs was a good thing. And he also would partition his SSD so one partition would wear less than the other (doesn't work that way with SSDs).
Sorry but this inmate has zero credibility with me. It's one thing to tweak and theorize while criticizing "IT guys". It's another matter completely when fmak'ing total bogus misinformation.
"This was a while back about the same time said inmate was suggesting defragmenting SSDs was a good thing"
That was not my recollection, so I went back and checked. My recollection was correct.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I just don't have ANY problems with XP on SSDs. Even w/o dual boot on XP, you can Trim as an external drive or run Diskeeper SSD Free Space Optimizer.
8: Trim (4.11) Open this result in new window
Posted by fmak on 2014-04-04, 22:23:22 (93.109.161.60)
This is why I have dual boot. On XP I run programs that W8 won't plus reliable and easier/more informative Acronis and Diskeeper. On W8 Trim works. On some earlier SSD, you can also run Garbage collec .......
Diskeeper SSD Free Space Optimizer IS a defragmenter. No benefit on SSD. Look it up.
In other posts, he suggests partitioning SSDs to minimize wear in one of the partitions. Won't work as SSDs are not 'electro-mechanical' in nature like HDDs. The controller will write to whatever NAND flash cells it chooses regardless of how the SSD is partitioned.
Like I said, tweaking and theorizing is one thing but spewing factually inaccurate misinformation is another.
I think there may be some confusion regarding software product names and versions. Here is fmak's post that I was working off:
"It is not defrag; read it up. Hyperfast
It works well."
I suggest reading the entire thread for more clarity.
My only experience with Diskeeper comes from using an early version to attempt to clean up a huge MFT. The only effect of the product was to trash the entire volume. As a result of this experience, I will never remotely consider purchasing any product from that company.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I suggest reading the entire thread for more clarity.
Ye Gods! Where's the fun in that? All we need do is pull quotes at will and create mayhem where there used to be clarity. What kind of forum are you after?
Seriously, assuming (reasonably) that the link is the quote AC had in mind, it strikes me that it's a bit rich to "quote" out of context and without source a four-year-old remark on a different topic to discredit by association.
Still, what do we simple rednecks know about city folks' serrfisticated diskussions and flosifcal ways? Yeeeeeeeeehaw!
He said he used that defragger on his SSD. Lost credibility. Not sure how you see that comment of his being quoted 'out of context'.
Same inmate suggested partitioning a SSD to localize wear to the partition being written to. That doesn't work. Lost credibility again. Shall I dig that one up too?
Here's a guy who criticizes what he calls "IT guys" yet he spews factually incorrect computing nonsense. Believe what you will.
"Same inmate suggested partitioning a SSD to localize wear to the partition being written to. That doesn't work. Lost credibility again. Shall I dig that one up too?"
You may be right, but the verification would depend on details of SSD firmware, operating system drivers and file system software. At the time, I didn't particularly care, as I had reached the conclusion that SSDs were not (yet) mature technology and therefore not to be trusted with my precious data....
If you were arguing that most people tweaking computer audio systems don't have a clue as to what is going on, then I would agree with you. I would put myself in the same category since it has been decades since I had direct access to hardware and software designers and access to hardware logic diagrams and software source code. This is why I believe that tweaking operating systems for better sound quality will ultimately prove to be a futile effort, since it is vastly more difficult than simply designing and building proper isolation into DACs and downstream analog equipment. (If you are unsatisfied with the sound you get with your existing hardware, then these tweaks may be the best available alternative.)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
... "inmate was suggesting defragmenting SSDs was a good thing" - is a BS and a lie, disseminated by a notorious BS'er and a liar, in other do discredit an inmate who forgot more about audio-related matters, than nasty Apple-fixated coward ever knew.The fact that he also absolutely can't remain focused on audio-related topics - SSD defragmenting, value of Apple stocks etc. - while posting in Computer Audio forum, just adds an insult to (apparent brain) injury.
Edits: 08/30/14
You weren't looking in the right thread.Not convinced the fault's mine - why should I have to search the archive for a point made "quite some time ago" merely to understand your post? Given that you're belittling an inmate, why not provide a link to the pertinent thread so we can judge your claim for ourselves?
I say that because it is clear from this and other threads that many inmates still do not understand the (very basic) difference between data errors and timing errors, i.e. why the performance of a computer driving printers, scanners, storage devices and the rest does not inform about how it fares when driving an audio device.
The confusion leads to claims such as the one that error-free data transfers over USB "prove" that USB cable quality is, within obvious limits, irrelevant to USB audio.
As it goes, for reasons not relevant here, I don't hear much difference between USB cables in my dedicated-to-audio PC setup but I do understand why competent engineers are adamant that simply ensuring that a cable complies with spec is by no means the whole story for audio. I do not ridicule those who do report differences.
(Of course, many USB cables and interfaces that seem nonetheless to work reasonably well in general computing are waaaay out of spec but that's a different topic.)
In short, absent demonstration that fmak was unequivocally suggesting that ferrite beads on a USB cable cause data errors rather than exacerbate timing errors, the "zero credibility" thing works both ways. I doubt fmak would make such a claim though, of course, some might misinterpet his point.
Especially someone who asks, apparently in all seriousness, "How would hard data errors and the lack of retries manifest themselves audibly in the audio playback chain?"
Edits: 08/30/14
Not convinced the fault's mine - why should I have to search the archive for a point made "quite some time ago" merely to understand your post?
No one is placing fault or making you search the archives. I'm not making this stuff up.
Especially someone who asks, apparently in all seriousness, "How would hard data errors and the lack of retries manifest themselves audibly in the audio playback chain?"
A fair question, no?
I'm not making this stuff up.
Hadn't suggested you were but whether you're correctly interpreting what was written is a different matter.
A fair question, no?
Maybe I'm missing something but it struck me as a red herring, esp in the light of Steve's report.
Maybe I'm missing something but it struck me as a red herring, esp in the light of Steve's report.
No, not at all.
I'd be curious to know if 'hard errors' are observed over the USB audio interface as Steve witnessed, what do they sound like out the DAC?
I'm not talking about so-called slight timing variation (jitter) possibly due to differences in USB cables or any number of other reasons, but an actual distinctly audible event correlated against observed 'hard errors' over USB. Clicks, pops, scratches, bursts, etc. ??
Has anyone done this?
"I'd be curious to know if 'hard errors' are observed over the USB audio interface as Steve witnessed, what do they sound like out the DAC?
I'm not talking about so-called slight timing variation (jitter) possibly due to differences in USB cables or any number of other reasons, but an actual distinctly audible event correlated against observed 'hard errors' over USB. Clicks, pops, scratches, bursts, etc. ??"
You are really obsessed. If there are errors how can one correlate in real time what "AN ERROR" might sound like??? If you keep going back in time you might be able to find some hieroglyphics to try and make you stupid points!!!
If there are data errors on a USB cable, then sooner or later they will be audible if you listen carefully. You might not hear each individual data error, but if 10 occur a careful listener will likely notice at least one problem.
The sound of a USB error will depend on the particular music being played ant the particular algorithms in the DAC that respond to the error indication. The situation is more complex with USB errors than it is with SPDIF errors. SPDIF errors will be audible when they happen to hit high order bits of a PCM word, particularly if the music is quiet at that point. Because of the design of SPDIF there is no way the DAC can detect an error and perform muting, hence there will be clicks. In the case of USB errors the DAC will definitely be able to detect data errors, but a single bit error will affect not just one audio sample, but potentially all the data left in the remainder of a 1 msec block of audio.
There should be no data errors on USB audio. They should be at the level of people being killed by errant meteors. If there are errors the likelihood is that some piece of equipment is broken or that some fool paid big bucks for an expensive cable "designed" by an idiot who didn't know what he was doing.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
There should be no data errors on USB audio. They should be at the level of people being killed by errant meteors. If there are errors the likelihood is that some piece of equipment is broken or that some fool paid big bucks for an expensive cable "designed" by an idiot who didn't know what he was doing.
Thanks Tony. Yet at least one inmate has reported USB errors which by your comments would be a good indication that his equipment or cable is broken. It wouldn't make sense at that point to pursue other audio tweaks if the fundamental functionality of his USB interface is flawed.
I'd still be curious to know if anyone has observed these 'hard errors' using software or test equipment while listening for them, perhaps against a continuous tone to make them easier to hear.
He reported USB errors, but it may have been the result of a bug in the error counting software. I can get reported USB errors from my USBPAL driver if I try running with 8 msec buffers and none with 4 msec buffers. Also, there are a horrendous number of them even if no audio application is running. With either buffer size audio seems to play without obvious glitches.
If I load my system up heavily then sometimes another error "ASIO errors" will get counted. This is particularly true when I do room correction of a DSD file as CPU load gets to 75 percent (all cores). When these happen usually errors show up in pairs and they are usually audible. Typically, something like using the scroll wheel on the mouse while looking at a complex web page will provoke these errors. These errors mean that the application is not supplying buffers to the driver fast enough.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Thank you so much Tony (Saint Anthony) . You have much more patients than I do...
I'm not too pretentious - if all good ones are already taken, I'll be happy with something less traditional.
How about St. Baal?
nt
Making your usual helpful contribution again huh Bob?
Why can't one observe 'hard errors' over USB audio in realtime while listening to the output of a DAC in realtime?
Is that not possible? Since you're so bright and feeling so helpful today, please explain.
I wasn't really responding to the thread, just Abe's post. I should have looked more carefully at the context...
Rick
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