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I went to a BBC Proms concert in the Royal Albert Hall yesterday and, for the first time was seated 3-4 metres behind the Bass section level with the orchestrial platform inline with the front of the orchestra.We were told that the seats (free) had good acoustics but I doubted this at first and dreaded the position I was in a bit.
Music played was:
Dvorak Slavonic Dances
Greig Piano Concerto
Bax Roscatha
Riverdance - newish symphonic suiteI am very familiar with the Dvorak and Greig, having 176.4/192/24 files of these in their original recorded formats.
After the first movement, I was amazed by the truly 3 dimensional redition of the music, with accurate and holographics placement of the different instrument sections and with zero perception of hf agression as sometimes perceived in pcm recordings and playback.
The event was an amazingly enjoyable experience as I have never been seated in such a location before and always faced the orchestra in good seats.
Basically the lack of a left-right prespective was not a hindrance at all. Secondly it highlighted how poor stereo recordings can be in the rendition of spacial, image and sound quality from the instruments. There has been few (or none) occasions when I have listened to the music and did not think even of volume, sound quality,resolution, or tonal accuracy at all. The piano in the Greig performance from a well regarded artist had all the qualities of impact, percussion, clarity and emotion that are hard to reproduce in recordings.
To those guys who listen to peanut sized speakers 1-2 metres away and deny that imaging, tonal accuracy,image height, depth and width matter, I say go to a concert of your favourite music and choose a good seat, then
rationalise. You will change your minds.
Edits: 08/26/14Follow Ups:
I prefer my humble little stereo over any live (amplified) music for a number of reasons, mostly because the people involved producing live music today are half-deaf iPod listeners and tune accordingly. Those flaws carry over to "reproduced" music, but at least there I am in control of some of the chain, and can limit the pain.Shirly, this must be sarcasm, or reveals a truly sad state of affairs. My seat at my niece's most recent youth symphony recital was hard-left mid-hall, but I never expected it to suck as hard as you did. Not my preferred seat, but I was grooving hard on the amazing acoustics and ambiance. Your Victrola must be a simply stunning rig if live music comes as such a surprise.
"After the first movement, I was amazed by the truly 3 dimensional redition of the music, with accurate and holographics placement of the different instrument sections and with zero perception of hf agression as sometimes perceived in pcm recordings and playback."
Unless I have totally misunderstood, I envy your gear but also feel sorry that live music sounding better (again, un-amped or minus half-deaf iPodiots running the show) comes as a surprise.
Edits: 08/27/14 08/27/14 08/27/14 08/27/14
You REALLY need to get out more. Parlour audiophiles are the reason the "half deaf iPod listeners" will never join this hobby.
who prefers to listen whilst walking!
No idea what either of you are talking about.
I'll stick with sarcasm.
I first experienced the situation you described when I was a teenager and sitting in row 5 at a live Philadelphia Orchestra concert, where they played a George Enescu piece. This would have been in the late 1950's. Previously, at live concerts my seats had been far back. Later, when I was paying for tickets with my own money I eventually was able to afford seats in on the floor around row 20 in Symphony Hall, Boston. Here the imaging wasn't quite so dramatic, but the effect you describe was still present plus a nice left-right balance.
There are some stereo recordings that I have that capture much of this effect, typically real stereo recordings made with a Blumlein pair. Sitting in near field with eyes closed one can hear an enormous sound stage that goes way beyond the boundaries of the room. Most people have their systems set up for "hi-fi" listening, which does not sound like real instruments. There will be bass boom due to poor speakers or room resonances and excessively bright high frequencies due to room interactions between tweeter radiation patterns and room liveliness, Getting realistic stereo sound must address these issues through proper system setup. There should be no digital glare on clean recordings. Good recordings are out there if one searches.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I should have recorded the performance from FM to see how much of what I heard was captured.
However, I shall buy the CD if they release it but this will be sometime in the future when memory may well have faded.
"I should have recorded the performance from FM to see how much of what I heard was captured."
What is heard and captured in a brain is unique to the ears and position of those ears in a venue - what the microphones captured is probably significantly different.
One could only speculate on the value of an opinion of recall vs. an FM broadcast. Or one might find it an amusing read and no more....
Give me rhythm or give me death!
Good luck.
Although I no longer live in the Boston area, I am told that the symphony concerts are now recorded with "thousands" of microphones. If there were a huge number of microphones in the Albert Hall it's likely that the results will be multiple microphone pan-pot mono, not true stereo.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
No, there did not appear to be. I could count them.
Not true in New York or California, where I recently attended orchestral concerts where only 3 or 4 microphones were used in total.
What is the WORLD are you doing thinking about your stereo or computer audio during a live musical performance?
This is where the hobby has seriously gone off the rails, with posts like this.
Wasn't. My post was about those here who have said consistently that they don't understand terms like imaging, space and other attributes in reproduced sound.
Those terms, or ANY terms related to HiFi should NEVER enter the mind while listening to live music.
This is the result of audiophiles being poisoned by the dreck that reviewers insert in their reviews.
I can't wait for the day somebody posts about a hall or venue having "tube like" qualities.
Now that's goddamn funny.
Hey, I've actually thought that!
I have a musician friend who supported herself by busking in the London Underground while completing her PhD in musicology. As she found out the hard way, one doesn't continue to busk without joining the buskers' union. Admission to this union requires passing an audition. The union schedules the time and place its members play. She had been scheduled to play at a tube station that was blown up on 7/7, but fortunately she missed the scheduling message.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
That reads like the ghost of dearly departed Douglas Adams penned it
You have a legitimate claim.
It is rather frightening. I have 6 or 7 concerts coming this month and next..maybe I will check the hall for PRAT, "air", and soundstaging..LOL!!!!
You should walk around the venue doing a clap-echo test. I'm sure you'll get lots of weird looks. ;-)
My post was about those here who have said consistently that they don't understand terms like imaging, space and other attributes in reproduced sound.
Who are these imaginary inmates that post such things consistently?
nt
...I'm still looking for those inmates who you claim, "said consistently that they don't understand terms like imaging, space and other attributes in reproduced sound."
fmak could have written about his concert experience in a positive way. As usual, he used it as a way to accuse others of imaginary failings.
fmak's posts say a lot about him as a person.
my blog: http://carsmusicandnature.blogspot.com/
His quote verbatim, "My post was about those here who have said consistently that they don't understand terms like imaging, space and other attributes in reproduced sound.
Since his post was about 'those here who have said'..., I was wondering who they are. He has yet to produce any evidence that these people exist and if they do, where have they posted consistently about not understanding the terms above? Perhaps it was his imagination or on an imaginary forum. ??
As usual, you used your response as a way to accuse him of imaginary failings.
Your posts say a lot about you as a person.
PS: Apparently, no one in this forum "listens to peanut sized speakers 1-2 metres away and deny that imaging, tonal accuracy, image height, depth and width matter" - what's the problem?
I am immune to these pointless accusations or insinuations. As you said, just shows himself up.
read and won't comprehend or assimilate. Only a machine under instruction will look for an exact match of words.
....someone with a wild imagination who made the statement:
My post was about those here who have said consistently that they don't understand terms like imaging, space and other attributes in reproduced sound.
I was simply asking where these posts might exist as I don't recall any group of inmates who consistently didn't understand the terms you listed above.
You don't need to wait' it's all there to access.
ie halls like Concertgow, Boston etc (long rectangular) have excellent acoustics.
60s halls are terrible and need modifications ie Festival Hall London.
Berlin was very ordinary when I was there years ago.
The Royal Festival Hall has had 'flying saucers' fitted to improve acoustics and this works. Festival Hall has had Helmhotz resonators fitted to offset it's defect etc.
If no one listened critically to concert halls and learned from mistakes made there would not be such a thing as a good sounding concert hall.I remember H. Pearson's most "credibility enhancing" moment - for years he had complained about how the CARNEGIE had lost its magic after a major renovation. He would say it had a glassy sound LONG before they removed the stage floor and found massive mounds of broken glass underneath.
The same critical facilities you use to make an enjoyable system for "music in the home" are used in concert halls. Don't be so childish. Why couldn't a hall have a tube-like sound? Words and phrases are used to communicate an idea - if the concept is shared by the listener then the idea is made plain.
It is not as if the great halls used (inept) computer models to come up with their sound - it was experience built upon the antecedents of architects who knew what they were doing from personal experience and from the knowledge of those who came before; who spoke and wrote in a nomenclature both understood, and hence, were able to use this knowledge in the real world.
The halls that have broken with the tried and true end up relying on gimmicks and kludges, after their completion and often for YEARS after their completion, to sound acceptable as opposed to "good".
Have never been to the ROYAL ALBERT but cannot imagine a round hall sounding anything but horrible. Was the ROYAL ALBERT the first "who needs to pay any attention to the history of hall acoustics" hall?
Edits: 08/27/14
The Royal Albert certainly used to have a reputation for horrible acoustics. However, fmak's close in seating position would have done a good job of hiding these characteristics, assuming they hadn't been somehow "fixed".
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
The Royal Albert certainly used to have a reputation for horrible acoustics.
True, true but they were greatly improved over thirty years ago following the installation of some innovative saucer-like diffuser thingies. The age-old joke that used to do the rounds that the Hall was the best value venue in the land because one got to hear a concert twice was no longer fair, not that that stopped us repeating the quip.
I remember going to e.g. Proms-season period band concert performances of Handel operas (James Bowman? - I may well still have the programme) with very acceptable acoustics back in the late '80s. Which, for a hall that size and shape, is not to be sneezed at.
However, fmak's close in seating position would have done a good job of hiding these characteristics, assuming they hadn't been somehow "fixed".
See above - you're thirty years minumum out of date. Fmak's points are fair comment.
I agreed with fmak's post. And yes, I'm out of date. Other than some recordings, my knowledge of the hall is limited to a 1950's movie. :-)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
and posting way back here, as humbly as I can, to say that I agree with your original post. Live music can provide experiences that are transformational. What I really love is how that nearly electric feeling can be recalled for years. I hope you enjoy your memories of the evening you posted about for many years to come.JE
Edits: 08/26/14
"To those guys who listen to peanut sized speakers 1-2 metres away and deny that imaging, tonal accuracy,image height, depth and width matter"Do "those guys" really exist?
And for what it's worth in my experiences with live classical music, imaging, image height, depth and width matter only so much as they are perceived in the listening position. How those things are perceived in a stereo listening session is absolutely related to playback acoustical environment as well as recording venue including microphone placement.
Given the infinite configurations of recording venues + microphone placements and playback environments it would seem someone would have to be very lucky to get accurate reproduction of those spacial attributes. Most certainly some sense of imagine and scale will come through but comments on it have more to do with external forces than actual audio performance.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
Edits: 08/26/14
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