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In Reply to: RE: Beware bringing music in to work! posted by Jaundiced Ear on August 25, 2014 at 13:58:01
"When you get right down to it, by itself an ear can't hear a thing either. It's got to be hooked up to a brain.".
That brain can't do anything either unless it is under the control of a functioning mind.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Follow Ups:
Sorry about that! I've no idea what I've done to you. Is asking people to listen to the Audio Diffmaker Listener's Challenge really so insulting?
JE
I suggest improving your ability to detect hidden smily's. :-)
More seriously, people who sport "brain" as well as "ears" while going no further fail to demonstrate a complete understanding of what hears. The mind hears, not the brain or ears. The problem with people who sport a scientistic attitude is that they omit the most important component, which isn't surprising since this is the one where Science has the least amount of knowledge.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
"I suggest improving your ability to detect hidden smily's. :-)"
I guess my ability to detect hidden smileys is on par with my ability to detect inaudible sounds. ;-)
"The mind hears, not the brain or ears."
Fair enough. But that doesn't really rebut the point I was making to Ryelands. Let's just substitute "mind" for brain. The ear-brain combination is a tool the mind uses to perceive what it otherwise cannot.
Happy now? :-)
I don't see how in anyway this rebuts my core point that identical waveforms will sound the same, and indeed, even different waveforms will sound the same so long as the differences are so small as to be inaudible. Unless of course you are arguing that the perception of differences between identical waveforms occurs solely in the mind of the listener, that is, in the listener's imagination. I guess I could buy off on that.
All the Best!
JE
"I don't see how in anyway this rebuts my core point that identical waveforms will sound the same, and indeed, even different waveforms will sound the same so long as the differences are so small as to be inaudible"
Identical waveforms will not sound the same each time they are heard. First, there is no such thing as an identical waveform. (Analog signals always come with noise, acoustic signals have thermal motion of air molecules, etc..) But more to the point when it comes to "objective listening tests" the mind has memory. One will not hear the same sound when essentially the same waveform is heard the second time. The second listening will arise at a mind in a different state, a mind that has the memory of the earlier playback and a mind that may be concentrating on different aspects of the sound that it hears. In addition there are unconscious differences that may occur in the mind having to do with mood, level of fatigue, etc..
One may be able to get a clear definition of "obviously audible" but when it comes to subtle differences the concept is extremely difficult to define, leaving room for a lot of argument over what is audible and what is not. To get to the bottom of the situation one must past through the realm of psychology into the realm of philosophy (epistemology).
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
"Identical waveforms will not sound the same each time they are heard. First, there is no such thing as an identical waveform. (Analog signals always come with noise, acoustic signals have thermal motion of air molecules, etc..)"
Are you seriously arguing that the "night and day" differences reported by some inmates are due to thermal noise? To air currents and eddies in their rooms? Surely you aren't saying these claims are just a lot of hot air? ;-)
"But more to the point when it comes to "objective listening tests" the mind has memory. One will not hear the same sound when essentially the same waveform is heard the second time. The second listening will arise at a mind in a different state, a mind that has the memory of the earlier playback and a mind that may be concentrating on different aspects of the sound that it hears. In addition there are unconscious differences that may occur in the mind having to do with mood, level of fatigue, etc.."
So what you are saying is that these huge changes inmates claim are because their minds are in a different state? They occur in their minds? I'll agree with that.
"One may be able to get a clear definition of "obviously audible" but when it comes to subtle differences the concept is extremely difficult to define, leaving room for a lot of argument over what is audible and what is not. To get to the bottom of the situation one must past through the realm of psychology into the realm of philosophy (epistemology)."
Why bother with all this fruitless speculation when your proposition above, that the audibility of subtle differences occurs within the minds of the listeners, seems to provide a satisfactory description of what is going on?
"Are you seriously arguing that the "night and day" differences reported by some inmates are due to thermal noise? To air currents and eddies in their rooms? Surely you aren't saying these claims are just a lot of hot air? ;-)"
No. I have no problem detecting hyperbole when I hear it. I also aware that some inmates are more careful in their comments then others and give these people's listening reports more credence than others.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Which kinda makes sense, because it surely is not Computer Audio.
"Is asking people to listen to the Audio Diffmaker Listener's Challenge really so insulting?"
Are you getting paid per click? lol
Perfect waste of money.
"That brain can't do anything either unless it is under the control of a functioning mind."
:)
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