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In Reply to: RE: Sound Quality Changes caused by Sata cables. posted by Bob_C on July 06, 2014 at 14:43:45
I can certainly appreciate the effort of experimenters and would never try to discourage it. However, without testing there leaves too much uncertainty for my taste for the most part. I just don't have the time to waste on things that aren't guaranteed... for the most part.I'd really enjoy an opportunity to one day meet up with one of low power PC software tweaking types to compare the capabilities of what I'd consider a well vetted high computing performance hardware but standard software system compared with one of these stripped down tweaked out systems on a sufficiently high res analog front end. Don't know if I'll ever make an effort to get it done but it does seem interesting to me.
thanks for the tip on the JPlay forum I'll be reading through it.
Edits: 07/06/14 07/06/14Follow Ups:
What tests are appropriate as indicators of sound quality? Certainly not just a spectrum sweep which is an indicator of emission compliance only.
If you drop preconceived notions of what is good, there are plenty of intelligent audio modders to talk to (and perhaps learn from).
Obviously the ones related to immunity and the performance grading are quite applicable even if no manufacturer I'm aware of reports on the details of these tests.
My point is not that shielded sata cables can never be a good thing but that in most cases I'm skeptical that is the best place to start. Knock yourself out shielding your cables. It will be interesting to hear about what you find, more interesting if you had an accurate way to measure the performance difference but still interesting.
Perhaps you ought to drop pre concieving ridiculous attitudes and trying to attribute them to me, learn more about what the testing actually does before globally condemning it, and consider learning about the ways these things may be applicable to achieving your own goals.
I'm perfectly willing to entertain ideas I come across which strike me as reasonable per my understanding, but sometimes lose interest very quickly when confronted with irrational, emotional saviors who have convinced themselves they have it all figured out and are spewing peusdo technical garbage as fast as possible across the forums. Seems these guys forum presence far out weigh and out voice the more logical methodical experimenters. I mentioned earlier about my lack of patience.
Based on what I've read and in my opinion many of the experimenters out there, not necessarily you per se, have yet to figure out the basics and need to focus outside their PC's, fixing the glaring issues before addressing the minutia. My recommendation is to take these experimenters advice with a gigantic truckload of salt.
Where on earth did you get this notion from? It's clearly a preconceived notion about what I was posting.
Where? Duh, by leaving it in the context of the rest of the sentence which went with it. Are you serious right now?
In the same sense that a (MAC) thunderbolt drive and cable may perform differently, AND in the same sense that 2 external USB cables may perform differently, and in the same sense that a different linear power supply may perform differently: what is the best way to test and measure whether or not an internal SATA cable performs differently? Wouldn't more than one test be helpful.
Clearly, FMAK conducted several tests.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
"What are you calling minutae, and why?"
An example: the perceived benefits of addressing the usually huge and readily audible problems associated with improper grounding of multi component systems will in many cases far outweigh the benefit of addressing some lower energy noise problem where the effects falls well under the noise floor of the larger problem.
Not to accuse anyone one in particular of incorporating improper grounding techniques. The point is it is nearly impossible to know from which level of experience and success each poster speaks. I've seen spectral plots of sampled analog inputs by guys who I'd figured had it together suggesting severe setup flaws. I've learned to try not to over/under estimate anybody I don't know.
Thank you for your response.
Certainly improper grounding either by the manufacturer of 1 component, - or inherent in the system due to a grounding mismatch is a BIGGER issue than a SATA cable in the transport.
Likely, however, a big issue like that would've reared its ugly head long before FMAK or anyone got involved with a computer as transport.
Someone with Fred's experiences and knowledge shouldn't be questioned on the former IMO: especially given the history of his posts, and his related experiences with other components. AND, as Carcass pointed out, this is just about the easiest thing that anyone could try, the difference between a $.90 and at most, $40 shielded cable that anyone can unplug from the mainboard, and into their internal HD.
I have to agree that this giant thread is a "cult of personality" thing where anything that Fred says, (even if he agreed with the 'computers are wonderful' party line), he'd get piles of shite thrown at him.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I have used one point grounding and ac isolation for over 30 years. It is a given and I don't know why you had assumed that I placed Sata cables ahead of this.
Do you ground the various lumps of metal in your PCs? Even manufacturers with 'tested' machine don't.
Considering this was an answer to another poster, I see little point in explaining myself here other than to ask how could I possibly know your views on grounding until you just said so. I barely know anything about you. The original statement was obviously stated in the context that "most cases" of posts of random posters found here are likely users that have no clue about rf grounding. I still think that. That I even went on to state further down in my response to sordidman that I wasn't trying to specifically accuse you of poor grounding still I get this apparent temper tantrum.
"Do you ground the various lumps of metal in your PCs? Even manufacturers with 'tested' machine don't."
Please be more specific.
ask and please don't preach.
There is only one inmate that I won't respond to when asked, because, when you reply to one question, he asks ten others that either circumnavigate or show off his own 'knowledge' of everything.
I would hate to have been his employee and in any case, I used to deal with such people fairly effectively ie become his/her boss, or go elsewhere.
Clearly, FMAK conducted several tests.
Well, lets SEE his setup, his methodical approach, and his proof. He flames manufacturers for 'proof' all the time yet we are supposed to follow along as he plays whack a mole?
I would have to agree that Abe's logic is correct that Fmak provides no test method, posted results or any other data to back up his claim. If he has a TEK scope he can take snapshots and post the results for all to see, as well as his system to discern the sonic qualities of the changes made.
This is certainly not to much to ask from a so called "expert".... I am not condoning his purpose, just the delivery by which he states his position without any data. We did not achieve audio reproduction without sound technical engineering.
As another has stated, it would be nice to evaluate the sonic differences on another system with several different computers. I am certain my system is more than capable of resolving any differences. Anyone in the Chicagoland area is free give it a try at my residence.
MAK
I would hazard to guess that about 70% of your posts in PC Audio forum are dedicated solely to angry reactions to fmak's posts, picking fights with fmak, and threatening to complain about fmak to moderator.
Should it really surprise anyone, that you'll agree with whoever else hates fmak's guts - and the more, the merrier?
Fmak tired something, achieved a positive result in his system, and reported it, so everyone else could try for themselves - what's so fucking difficult to comprehend? He doesn't owe you, nor anyone else, any proof - go get it yourself, if you're so inclined.
fmak says he obtained a positive result in his system. My problem is that fmak never tells us what his system is and it always seems to be changing. I'm sorry, but I am suspicious. When I have an unsatisfactory playback I keep changing my system. When I get a positive result I stop changing my system and start enjoying music. Now it may be that fmak's system sounds great. Indeed, it might take only a few minutes actually listening to it to ascertain whether this is so or not. However, this is not an opportunity I have. All I have is what he posts. I don't see technical claims and justification for them, such as what a nerd would post. I also don't see the type of detailed and careful subjective reviews that a non-technical reviewer such as Mercman writes.
I also don't see interesting references to good, albeit unconventional music such as you occasionally post. :-)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Rummelsnuff - "Bratwurstzange"Won't win any prizes for sophistication any time soon, but together with video - is pretty enjoyable.
Edits: 07/08/14
"fmak says he obtained a positive result in his system. My problem is that fmak never tells us what his system is and it always seems to be changing. I'm sorry, but I am suspicious."
In this case what his system is not really important IMO. He found that a shielded SATA cable was an improvement. I also use a shielded cable in my audio system. You own a system from a manufacture I believe. Is it an Asus? If so you probable have a good SATA cable. Some of the generic flat cables are not good for audio, this is been discussed on other forums. A cable is only a few dollars, if you want to use some copper tape another few. How can this be faulted?
regards
Bob
which is not good either
"which is not good either"
I happen to use a 6in cable,but if read the thread on CA the ASUS 18in was also a good cable according to some posters. Someone also split and twisted it.
May not be a good thing as it disturbs geometry.
What cable do you use and are you sold on Paul Pangs's?
I use an Ok gear nothing exotic, but I think it meets the criteria. I have not tried Paul's cables yet. I do use his USB card and I am impressed. From what I hear with the cards, and the feedback on the web I would expect his cables to be good also. He puts allot of time and effort into what he does, pretty cutting edge. He even updates MB clocks.
a similar one to yours but the distance in the case I posted was too large.
I have two SATA cables in my system, one for each disk drive. One SATA cable came with the disk that was bundled in my system. The other SATA cable is used with a 4 TB internal hard drive that I added. As far as I can tell, both cables are the same. Most of the SATA cables in my collection came with various disk drive kits that I have acquired over the years. They all look alike.
I also have an ESATA cable. This involves a regular SATA cable inside the box to a header to an external ESATA cable (which is shielded). This connects to a Blac-X device that has a slot into which one can drop an internal drive and use it externally. Normally this slot is unused ant the Blac-X device not powered up. I use this for off-site backups.
During normal audio playback there is no activity on any of these SATA cables, as far as I am aware of. As such, they are definitely not in the audio signal path on my system. It was a deliberate decision on my part to play out of a RAM disk, and this was based in part on sound quality issues. It also provides a convenient way for me to store my library in FLAC and yet play WAV files.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
have not addressed a single point about the topic regarding spread spectrum and how it may affect audio.
I posted about what I found wrt a cable which was not shielded. If you are unhappy with this, all I can say is that you are trying to apply preconceived ideas about how computers should be made to how computer audio can be improved.
Are you interested in audio at all?
You know fmak my intent was not to be offensive. I was just being critical. My kid hates it but I can't seem to help myself. Probably a big part of why the old lady is anow an ex.I do appreciate that you liked the result. To me it is now a noted data point suggesting it could be a useful mod in some cases. My frustration is simply that it hasn't been quantified in terms I can understand.
Edits: 07/07/14
I don't mind at all, provided that it is not based on assumptions about that are not true.
I also don't accept pomposity from those who think they know better without first asking about the circumstances.
Whatever. I started (see my first post to you) by asking you about your system. It was you who chose to not discuss that and deflect the conversation. Now you will whine about me not asking about your system??
"have not addressed a single point about the topic regarding spread spectrum and how it may affect audio."
It will likely be system dependent what the effect will be, both dependent on the noise source and dependent on the impressed noise problem. Reducing the emissions from noise generators will lower noise and/or distortion in devices susceptible to it.
How's this for you? I'm not going to speculate about how this quantitatively applies to the nearly infinite possibilities of equipment combos.
"I posted about what I found wrt a cable which was not shielded."
You mean this?
"Presto, sound stage, focus, as well as hf and lf balance have come back and I am a lot happier"
I have no idea what you are even talking about there. I speak in terms of things like noise and distortion. You know, things which may be measured.
"Are you interested in audio at all?"
Of course. Are you interested in something besides fairy dust and magic beans?
n
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