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In Reply to: RE: More Comments on the Audioquest DragonFly posted by Mercman on July 04, 2012 at 14:08:47
Just learned that it is 24/96 (USB Audio Class 1 ??)only.
At 250$ this is not state of the art. Especially if you consider what
the Sabre is capable of.
The Sabre can go up2 384khz and can also run DSD.
Bus power supply is not the first choice either.
IMO another little toy to forget about.
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::: Squeezebox Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more ::: by soundcheck
Follow Ups:
.
Are you saying that it should be state of the art for $250, or that it should do more for $250, or?
24/96 only? I can't imagine there a very many people looking for a portable DAC that want to play 384K or DSD files.
I also would not want to lug around and hook up a separate power supply for a portable DAC.
If it sounds as good as reported I think they did a remarkable job of hitting their target market at an attractive price point.
AudioQuest is no stranger to the state-of-the-art. The DragonFly was never meant to be that type of product. They wanted a USB DAC that was portable and sounded decent. If you actually had experience listening to one, you would understand what I'm talking about.
The key word is "listening"
There are so many devices out there. With that feature list they won't impress many people.
Meanwhile DACs are commodity products. The recipe of how to built a good sounding DAC is no rocket science anymore. (I'm really wondering how Gordon still manages to sell his stuff.)
Highest Fidelity sound on a mobile device I consider somewhat irrelevant.
I do own two Sabre DACs by myself. If they've done a good job - I know what to expect soundwise.
They could have done better: 150$ for the current device. 200$ incl. 24/384 and maybe 250$ incl. DSD. An external PS option would have been a nice add-on.
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::: Squeezebox Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more ::: by soundcheck
"I do own two Sabre DACs by myself. If they've done a good job - I know what to expect soundwise."You are one impressive guy Klaus. I have listened to several Sabre based DACs and they did sound quite different to me. But I guess the essential point is if they've done a good job.
Edits: 07/06/12
Hi Steve.I know you got plenty of pocket money to play with. However.
At 199$ you can get e.g. a Sumoh Full Digital Amp (instead if seperate DAC and AMP with associated seperation issues) Add to it a 140$ Hiface II or a 170$ Audio GD DI II with reclocker.
That's what I call value for the money.
Of course you can run your Dragonfly into a chinese 100$ Class-D Amp. Which might turn out to be a nice sounding setup too.
Since I'm a DIY minded person and an engineer by profession, I'm a bit more flexible when it comes to heating up the soldering iron.
I got my DIY Full Digital amp for 50$ and currently run a Audio-GD interface. This setup replaces pretty my well tweaked Sabre/AMP combos.To me the recent past, the present and future is full digital.
Enjoy.
P.S: But let see. I perhaps order a Dragonfly for testing just to get an idea how it sounds. But even if it sounds as good as you suggest, I wouldn't buy it because of beforementioned lack of features.
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::: Squeezebox Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more ::: by soundcheck
Edits: 07/07/12 07/07/12 07/07/12
"At 199$ you can get e.g. a Sumoh Full Digital Amp (instead if seperate DAC and AMP with associated seperation issues) Add to it a 140$ Hiface II or a 170$ Audio GD DI II with reclocker."
Absolutely... Perfect for someone to carry in their pocket with their headphones to connect to their laptop. Amazing...
Thanks for you suggestions Klaus. The point of my post was that you don't have to spend a lot of money to have enjoyable sound. You have confirmed this with your suggestions.
If you could bring all of this out for $250, what's stopping you?
Just because they don't use USB 2.0 for 24/192 files.
24/96 sounds the same via USB 1 & 2, so for the vast majority of people who are not 'needing' to stream 24/192 only to some headphones USB 1 is fine.
BTW it does not work with iPad + CCK.
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
It still is 250$.
And the pity is that the DAC would allow much higher sample rates.
There is no extra cost.
No idea what drove them to stay at USB 1.
I'm sure an XMOS+Sabre wouldn't have killed the budget. (Maybe the Wavelength stuff killed it ;) )
Let see. Maybe M2Tech comes with such a device sooner or later.
Did yo try to put a USB Hub in between the CCK and the DAC. My Audio-GD
works this way. With Pluplayer DLNA you should be able to stream even
24/96.
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::: Squeezebox Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more ::: by soundcheck
SC,
Next time we will invite you to the design meetings! Maybe you can share your vast knowledge about digital design :)))
Come on...
First doing the XMOS is far more expensive, second it is not compatible without drivers for Windows.
Second... What is so great about going to 192 or 384? Tell me... I want to know because those are multiples of 2. Going from 16 bits to 24 bits, now there's something to talk about.
Third... current the XMOS draws a ton more current and we already were drawing a bunch for the headphone/line driver.
This is a product designed for the world, not you! The product was designed by me but really AQ uses a team system and everyone had their say. Class 2 was never even brought up. Why... because AQ has 12,000 dealers and to support Windows alone would be horrific.
Fourth DSD... again come on... it takes both either the 9016 or 9018 dac as well as a PLD to switch the data lines and a whole bunch other stuff to make that work. Why so 3 of you can use it with DSD playback????
Really I don't get it... go back to to the SB and leave us alone.
SC, I suggest you sell or take the unit back to were you bought it. Though it does clearly say that it is a 96K capable dac and really then you have no grounds other than you bought it and expected the world for $250.
Others sorry for the rant, but this is just silly!
G.
J. Gordon Rankin
"Really I don't get it... go back to to the SB and leave us alone."
That would be something. Right!?!?
Thx for letting us know your emotional side. That tells me a lot.
I also appreciate that you let us know that you were the "mastermind"
behind the product. Suddenly all this starts making sense.
"Poor" Mercman plays again a role in that marketing game. (Obviously he is not realizeing this - it's not his intention to do your marketing)
Now you want me "to leave you (us) alone". Hmmh. What's going on here!??!
"Maybe you can share your vast knowledge about digital design.."
For this kind of disussion my knowledge is more than sufficiant.
And I can tell you I wouldn't have accepted your solution, if I'd
been in charge.
Look. You probably pretty much copy/pasted your latest stuff into that product. Most of the building blocks do show your already known design philosophy.
By doing so you ended up with certain - IMO not-state-of-the-art compromises, featurewise. Going this way meant less effort and licensing fees on your side and less design effort on the Audioquest side. That's nothing unusual in todays audio world. Lot's of audio manufactureres buy-in knowledge.
You guys explained why you've taken those feature decisions. That's all fair enough. However. There are alternatives even with XMOS or Tenor you name it in conjunction with different DACs then Sabre+PIC+AMP. But that's not your home turf.
You sold your concept to Audioquest and they accepted - you maybe even partnered up with them. Fair enough.
The market will tell you guys if you were right about your concept. The competiton will tell you if there are really no alternive concepts possible.
And one more word. If you guys intend to do your marketing -- ""leave us alone"" ?? -- over here, I'd strongly recommend to buy banners or open a vendor section. You better stay out of these kind of discussions. You as a manufacturrer don't have to explain anything. You got plenty of fans , who'll take your position, around here. We didn't discuss more detail (pro's and con's) then you'd find in any audio magazine review. I was pretty surprised about this allergic reaction. Obviously I stepped on someones toes.
Just to say it again. My intention was to layout my personal view
about the Dragonfly product from a feature perspective. The whole thing obviously ended up with a slight different spin to it.
Thank you.
P.S: My Squeezebox Project is free of charge and a community effort in some areas and makes - besides thousands other setups - even your high priced products sounding better!!!! ( You'll be surprised - the SBT can talk USB)
Yep. The SBT - A great product at 250$!!!!!! That's what I call value for the money.
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::: Squeezebox Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more ::: by soundcheck
A small XMOS/Sabre unit like the Dragonfly would be great esp. if they allowed it to be externally powered.
Dragonfly might just serve to pave the inroads for other manufacturers willing to take it a step higher.
imo they can leave out the Wavelength feature, more gimmick than anything.
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
> they allowed it to be externally powered. <
If it were externally powered how could we use it on a plane?
~~~
The Driver smiled when he lost the car in pursuit...
"No idea what drove them to stay at USB 1."
Perhaps Audioquest wanted to keep things simple with no special drivers for Windows.
That will certainly keep things simple. No drivers, no switch to flip between USB version number or (in the case of my DAC) no choice of USB connectors to use on the back of the DAC).
A low priced unit doesn't leave a lot of money in the business plan for customer support.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Sure doesn't but thats the price you pay to enter a hot market. Slim profit margins in exchange for a slice of the market share.
I think this little thingy will have robust sales world-wide due to its price point and because it can ride off the already good reputaion of the Sabre Dac chip.
An example of this can be seen with Google's Nexus 7 and the Kindle Fire. Both of which have slim to no profit margins, but whos only purpose is to grab some market share and increase overall profit and exposure of their product base.
=============
From News:
What TechInsights has figured is that the production cost on the Nexus 7 is $184 USD per tablet. That’s roughly a $15 USD profit per device for Google and ASUS. Amazon noted earlier this year that they were basically losing money on each tablet just so they could send out a machine that would be a perfect home for their media – and of course this model did indeed work for a while, the Kindle Fire being second only to the iPad earlier this year as well
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
XMOS does it driverless: See Hiface II a 140$ device.
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::: Squeezebox Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more ::: by soundcheck
Yes, but this is S/PDIF output. AudioQuest wanted a dac that could drive headphones Or an amp directly. I understand if the DragonFly is not for you.
Edits: 07/06/12
Don't know about special drivers, USB 2.0 is plug-in-play for every OS. No need to go the special driver route...UNLESS you want more then 24/96. Which is enough reason to avoid special drivers all in itself. I think they did the right thing...even if it saved .10 cents per/unit the savings will add up in the long run.
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
"No need to go the special driver route...UNLESS you want more then 24/96."
That's the point I was trying make.
> > > That's the point I was trying make.
:-)
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
What is it about the iPad that won't allow it to work with the Dragonfly? Shouldn't the Dragonfly show up as a USB audio device just like other USB DACs?
By the way, thanks for the info re: Jellybean (below). From what I've read, it looks like Jellybean will have support for USB host and USB device. And if you haven't seen it yet, there are pictures of Samsung's Galaxy S III feeding a USB DAC via its USB output. The Samsung is running ICS (4.0), not Jellybean (4.1), so USB audio should work with devices running or scheduled for ICS upgrades. That, of course, means that the manufacturer needs to enable USB audio when they write their device code (stock 4.0 won't auto-enable USB audio -- the manufacturer must add it to the build).
Hopefully Toshiba is working on a Jellybean update for their THRiVE and will bypass the yet-to-be-delivered Ice Cream Sandwhich which they have pushed back to Q3/Q4 2012 or they will at least add USB audio to their ICS build.
Actually I don't have an iPad but Jude over at Headfi tested it.
Re: Jude at Head-Fi
"...unfortunately the iPad doesn't kick out enough juice through the Camera Connection Kit to power the Dragonfly up."
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
I know there were lots of people who were ticked off when Apple cut the amount of juice that the iPad could output. I believe it's now down to 100mW, right?
I can't remember what the THRiVE can output, but it's quite a bit more than 100mW. I know it will power a portable hard drive because I have mine connected to a 500GB Seagate GoFlex for headphone/late night listening.
> > > I know there were lots of people who were ticked off when Apple cut the amount of juice that the iPad could output. I believe it's now down to 100mW, right?
Apparently the new iPad outputs 20mA down from 100mA.
Consumers are always at the mercy of Apple. This includes any app.
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
"Consumers are always at the mercy of Apple. This includes any app."
Absolutely. That's why I don't buy their products, but even that doesn't provide an escape hatch, because I support a web site with customers who have Apple products and I get to vicariously "enjoy" Apple problems.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
.
Are you not at the mercy of whoever you buy from?
Does the computer manufacturer you bought from build it to your specifications? Does Bill Gates consult you when Microsoft designs their operating systems and other programs.
>
"Are you not at the mercy of whoever you buy from?"
Of course, at least to some extent. This is why one wants to patronize ethical companies and do one's part to shame other companies so they will reform, or failing that, drive them from the marketplace.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
> > > This is why one wants to patronize ethical companies and do one's part to shame other companies so they will reform, or failing that, drive them from the marketplace.Thats right, of course we might not be able to drive Apple from the market place but people can and should patronize companies that are sensitive to consumers.
Customer service means everything. Apple seems to be of the mindset that they can and will do what ever they want. Hence no Flac support, no Flash support and from what ChannelD 'PureMusic' says that "Apple removed the ability to send audio in nonmixable integer stream mode in OS X 10.7."
Apples iTunes is horrible and only serves to market its products.
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
Edits: 07/06/12
.
I never understood the whining about FLAC since files formats are easily converted.
Flash isn't dead but it is dying and will soon be a thing of the past. Looks like they were ahead of the curve on that one but I do admit it irritates me I can't view some web sites on my iPad.
iTunes is a very powerful database that works wonderfully for managing a music library.. and it is free. Yes, they use it as a front to sell things... so what?
You are correct about integer support but from what PM also tells us it really isn't needed. My DAC doesn't support it in any version of OSx and sounds great so I could care less about it.
Apple's customer service is actually very good. I've gotten very good free phone support and you can get free support at one of their stores. They do charge for phone support after some period of time but that is not unusual.
.
.We're "at the mercy" of all manufacturers if you want to use that type of hyperbole.
Yes, you get the apps from them but there are currently over 200,000 available for the iPad so it's not like they are choking off the supply.
Windows users are at the mercy of Microsoft.
Kindle users are at the mercy of Barnes and Noble.
Sick people are at the mercy of the drug companies.
And before you accuse me of being an Apple promoter I have several computers and devices running a variety of operating systems so I'm not in the cult. I don't think they have a monopoly in anything they sell and have a small fraction of most markets so you have choices just like you do with almost anything you buy. Why do you feel the need to attack this one company?
.
Edits: 07/06/12
Apple shills .
When M$ was in a position to lock in their customers some years back, they got their share of (deserved) bashing. As to the other companies you mentioned , this is a forum on computer audio . There are lots of other forums where the other companies can and do get bashed.
Apple wouldn't take these hits if it were an exemplary company led by an exemplary leader. A brief skim over Steve Job's biography should make the reason why people hate Apple pretty clear.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
There is no real apple bashing. It's just that 4-5 users here are so ultra sensitive (for whatever reasons) that they seemd to have lost all sense of proportion whenever a subject is raised. This has meant that there has been no meaningful discussion, just name calling and in one or two cases, web bullying.
I am almost certain that there are commercial reasons at play, with one inmate constently acting as a surrogate promoter of a group of usb products, and I don't see any comments here about trolling in favour of these products.
.
I think not. I bet most people couldn't tell you much about Apple's business practices or Jobs'.
You may dislike them for that reason but all I hear around here is how they screwed up things by promoting MP3s. In my mind equivalent to blaming fast food restaurants for the obesity epidemic.
I did poke around the net looking for some info on him and read through the Wikipedia bio, but I didn't find much that backs up your claims.. I admit I've never followed his career or the business practices of Apple very closely so what you say may be true.
I'm keeping my iPad though.
.
.
I'm keeping mine too, even though I'm not fond of Apple, the company, the products, the stores, the fans, especially the fans, the hype, the concept...
So why am I "sending this from my iPad"?
Because I'm driven by what things can do, what value they deliver to me, not advertising or the corporation's goodness or badness. For me over the years PC's, starting with the very first one, have delivered the goods while Apples haven't, but the goods I need and value are of not necessarily congruent with those of other users. For instance Apples did what teachers needed with far less strain than PCs. They were bombarded with advertising to make them believe that, but it was also true. Now we all use little Lisas, Jobs, and more accurately Xerox, were right.
I bought this for HW reasons, I was tired of fan and hd failures on laptops and also wanted to try the tablet format and this was the cheapest thing in the store that had reasonable capabilities. But what I really want is XP on a tablet. Maybe next go-round?
Rick
I don't know what you do with it, but I pity those in business who put themselves under pressure thru the compulsive use of iPAD messaging.
Recently, a guy I know emailed me on a matter ten times, when once would have done the trick, simply because he could respond in an instant.
Those who manage their time in a manner which reduces pressure and which enables focus will know what I mean.
The thing that I hate most about the iPAD (or iXXX) is when I get an email with the "Sent from my iPAD". It pisses me off doubly: first that Apple would put their damn advertising in paying customers emails and second, that the asshole sending the email didn't show me the courtesy of removing this gratuitous advertising. The worst part about the advertising is the word "my", the obvious implication being that "I" am cool and you are not (unless you have one of these as well). Obviously, I am not taken in by this hype, but I will admit that the world is full of idiots who are, as witnessed by the price of Apple stock.
Apart from this marketing BS there are functional problems too, problems that I am stuck with on occasion when a download customer can't make these crippled computers work with my website. I have never had this problem with customers using real computers.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I play with it. It's a toy, an amusement device....
It's quite good at it. Right now I writing to you from the comfort of my couch but for work I use a PC at my desk downstairs surrounded by books and paper.
This works well for reading stuff like AA, the news, PDF files and for looking at maps and such. However typing on it is rather slow but nice and quiet, as it has no moving parts except for five switches.
They were not designed for work and yet they can do some. We had a new HVAC system installed last winter and one of the guys that quoted it was using an iPad. His had a camera and he'd take a picture of the existing stuff and he'd measure and fill in blanks on a form in real time. Ultimately it coughed up the quote and he just copied the numbers to paper and gave it to us. Pretty slick.
Rick
Not exactly FAST, but its the price you pay for being Cool.!!
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
.
Why do you tie your concerns specifically to the iPad?
.
From Gordon:
"The headphone amplifier is 125mw unit so it's pretty hefty for such a small size. Because of the power required for the amplifier/line + analog volume control we could not keep the current draw below the iPad minimum for use with the Camera Connection kit."
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