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How do I convert to hi res files w/o buying a sony playstation with secret model number? I have converted lots of them from their cd layer but if I wanted to convert the dsd to hires pcm how can I do it? The columbia and sony sacd's in most cases do not have a cd layer so it is for those that I am especially interested in converting to pcm.
Edits: 04/23/12Follow Ups:
such as with a Korg 1000 or 2000 machine. Then, you use their software program to convert that file to whatever PCM flavor you want. Hey, maybe ask if there's anyone who owns one that you could borrow.I've seen Korg MR1000 recorders on the used market for around $600, but they're being replaced with the MR2000S, so are getting harder to find.
Stephen
Edits: 04/26/12
Yes, you can pass the music through the "analog hole" but you will lose resolution due to jitter and other defects in the SACD player and the analog to DSD converter. And even if both conversions happen to be perfect you will still have more high frequency digital noise due to the two generations of DSD.
I liken this to recording music off the radio by putting a microphone up to the speaker. :-)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
If the SACD player has SPDIF output, and the recorder SPDIF input (which mine does) then the recording should be the same as the disc?
SACD/universal players do NOT output anything SACD via their SPDIF outputs, only analog or HDMI. As per earlier post, you could add an SPDIF board modded, but it would still be PCM downconverted. Net/net, the Korg-as-recorder is not a solution to pull DSD off of an SACD, regardless.
If the SACD player outputs in SPDIF it means that it has converted the DSD from 2822/1 down to PCM at a much lower sampling rate. There will be loss of resolution, but probably not so much as if you had gone through the analog hole. The output sampling rate and bit depth will depend on the player and how it is set up.
If you want to get the full resolution of the original SACD (an exact clone of the music) you have to make a DSD copy. This will require professional equipment, DIY skills (e.g. soldering), or the Playstation or other method that breaks the DRM. (Breaking the DRM is probably illegal when done in fascist countries even if you own the disk.)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
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If you really believe that why don't you move?
The laws on this may be over-reaching but to claim we live in a fascist state is ridiculous.
.
Fascism is the combination of large corporations and government power. The DMCA is a law that was passed by bribes to politicians by the content industry (e.g. RIAA and MPAA). Laws such as the DMCA that makes it a crime to reverse engineer products that one has purchased are totally incompatible with freedom.
The US is not a free country and hasn't been so for a long time. I first realized that it was no longer a free country when the 55 MPH speed limit was put in place. But this, like other nibbling removals of freedom since, was too little to cause me to "jump out of the pot". I'm like the other 99% of people in the U.S. who are being cooked like frogs in a boiling pot.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
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So you were free driving 65 but not at 55? I take it you support a system with no speed limits then?
Are we completely free? Of course not. Do we live in a fascist state? Certainly not.
Do any of the definitions below even come close to describing the US in its current state?
fas·cism
1. a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
2. any ideology or movement inspired by Italian Fascism, such as German National Socialism; any right-wing nationalist ideology or movement with an authoritarian and hierarchical structure that is fundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism
3. a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
"Corporations are people too, my friend."
When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be disappointed to discover they are not it. ~ Bernard Bailey
For your sake, I hope that the President or his successor doesn't choose to exercise his newly claimed power and declare you to be a "Terrorist" and order your termination.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
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Perhaps, but you are the more likely target since you are the one claiming he is running a fascist state .
!
I don't own any SACDs because of DRM. I have some DSD downloads and will get more as the selection improves. These come without DRM and can be easily played with a DSD DAC or by converting the files to PCM using free software such as AudioGate or Foobar2000.
I have avoided buying SACDs because the temptation to crack the DRM would be too great and I don't want my FBI file to get larger. :-)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Anybody been following this development. I'm a little handcuffed right now with all this... especially since I use an Apple:
http://www.audiostream.com/content/usb-link-dsd-audio-pcm-frames-andres-koch
Macs can run Windows natively on a separate boot partition on your disk drive. Look into "bootcamp" from Apple. You carve out space on your disk and at bootup you choose either Windows or Mac OS. Apple supplies all the necessary Windows drivers.
Or... you can run Windows in a virtual machine as I have done. I have Windows XP, Windows 8, and Oracle Linux, all able to run at the click of a button on my MacBook Pro..... or I can run them all simultaneously if I wish and it's easy to drag 'n drop files between the different OS environments. I prefer Parallels but there are other choices including VirtualBox which is FREE.
For virtualization software on the Mac, look at Parallels, VMware Fusion, and VirtualBox.
...or as previously mentioned, just run Windows natively on it's own disk partion on your Mac.
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I haven't tried it for anything audio as I'm happy with Pure Music and need the triamp crossover function but the other Windows programs I'm running work just fine.
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Lokie, yes, I've been using DoP (DSD over PCM) for several months now, and both my DACs use version 1.0 currently. I helped both Mytek (Michal) and Meitner (Gregory) beta test their implementations.
It's an ingenious (albeit short-term for Windows to some extent; ASIO is more straight-forward) way to get true native DSD sent over standard 24/176k PCM signal paths. We've discussed it here for some time. Apple is not a hurdle...it's what I use and why this DoP is so significant. Without it we Apple DSD audiophiles are screwed. I'll be using this scheme via Linux (MPD) asap too.
Lots of info from you guys...many thanks. Now I have to take some time to read all this stuff.
Theob, worst case you could send some to me and I'd rip them for you. I enjoy it (masocist).How many SACD's do you have? I could send you my ISO list (text file listing my SACD library of 450+ I've ripped) and the ones you already own would be ready immediately.
And yes, Windows and MAC players like Pure Music, HQPlayer, J River, Audirvana Plus, Foobar...actually playback native DSD (no PCM conversion unless you need to cuz your DAC isn't DSD-capable). The PS3 rips perfect ISO images (which can be stored for archiving or used to create a backup SACD-R with blank DVD-R's..assuming your SACD player is SACD-R capable), ISOs can then be extracted (in batch if needed) via Windows app to either DSF or DIFF formatted DSD tracks (stereo and/or multichannel).
PM me offline...I'll send you my SACD Ripping For Dummies pdf guide I wrote..
Edits: 04/23/12
Gang,
I am happy to help folks out with a reasonable number of SACD's they own, but PLEASE don't ask me to swap collections, etc. It's bad enough that ripping one's own personal library, for personal use, is theoretically no-no in the US (due to protected code breaking, etc...some even say ripping anything is no-no)....but swapping collections is WAYY no-no and nothing I am interested in. My guide is very specific about this; personal collections only..archiving and getting one's own bought SACD collection to one's own hirez DAC.
You're getting emails/PMs about "sharing" music. Why do these people feel the need to ruin it for the rest of us?
Personal collections -- I'm cool with that and couldn't care less whether it's legal or not (campaign "contributions", bribery: it's just semantics).
Stealing -- they deserve to be put under the prison.
The "content industry" is trying to redefine "stealing" to include copying.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I'm talking directly about the "Napster" crowd that thinks they're entitled to free music via file swapping, copying discs/files owned by someone else, etc. That is stealing.
Re: the industry, I have no problem with people making copies of what they have purchased (even if it means circumventing copy protection), just as long as it's for their personal use -- not "shared" with everyone else who wants a "free" copy.
It's copyright infringement. It's not theft. The copyright owner still has the same goods and money as if the copying had never taken place. It's not as if the Napster kiddies would have purchased a copy. It's not the same as if they had stolen a copy from a record store.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
The record industry big shots are not my favorite people either. However, people who think they're entitled to something for free are far below those in the record industry. From your comments, you seem to view these two groups differently.
I was making a distinction between two different classes of actions. However, my personal opinion is that a person who makes an unauthorized copy for his own use of music that he would never purchase has committed an offense that is far less serious than a record company executive who cheats an artist.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I dont use Outlook so I cant pm you. If you send me an email theobetley@gmail.com we can start some communication
Email sent.
DSD-to-PCM conversion can be done a few ways. The main 2 are:
1) use a good src and convert to something like 24/176k or whatver your DAC is capable of. My guide walks you through doing this in Audiogate, a free Korg utility.
2) on-the-fly via many of the Windows and Mac-based players. Each player has a setup rotuine that allows for realtime DSD-to-PCM conversion, with sample rate choices, etc.
Option 1 creates duplicate PCM files; option 2 leaves your DSD files as is.
As alluded to above, I helped pioneer the idea of using an HDMi de-embedder back 2 yrs ago, which is to grab 24 bit PCM off the SACD-to-processor HDMI stream and feed it to a very inexpensive HDMi de-embedder like Monoprice, Atlona, etc...but this option is less sonically preferable. HDMI is wrought with jitter, a few SACD players downrez to only 16 bit, and several more do only 24/88 DSD-to-PCM anyway (mediatek chip max).....and recording the output is a PITA, since it is realtime and requires some real work, track splicing,etc. :)
There was a time when folks like Shawn Fogg would produce a dedicated DSD-to-PCM board that several SACD players could handle via simple mods, resulting in 3-4 SPDIF 24 bit SACD output..but those are no longer readily available. Mytek and a few others have modded a Sony player or two with SDIF outputs (as alluded to above) but these modded options still requires spinning discs of course.
You said '...There was a time when folks like Shawn Fogg would produce a dedicated DSD-to-PCM board that several SACD players could handle via simple mods, resulting in 3-4 SPDIF 24 bit SACD output..but those are no longer readily available. Mytek and a few others have modded a Sony player or two with SDIF outputs (as alluded to above) but these modded options still requires spinning discs of course...'
I have a Shawn Fogg modded Oppo that outputs spdif 24/88 versions of sacds that I used to listen to live streaming to my Buf32s dac but computer files of the hybrid cd versions always sounded better through cplay. But if could transfer the 24/88 stream into data files that would be optimum for me. Is it possible?
Ted, the chances are that the reason the Oppo-based 24/88 didn't sound good was the Oppo DSD-to-PCM conversion, or the jitter from the player. Capturing those on data files is not the answer, I don't think (I could be wrong) but as I said a PITA for someone who has no patience to sit and record a 60 minute SACD for 60 minutes, then go back and cut the file into tracks. Since we have established an email trail lets take one of your SACD's that I also own (you have my ISO list) and I'll send you, via dropbox, one or two songs...a diff version and a 24/176k Audiogate-converted version. You then tell me...
BTW, I don't know if cplay will do Diff-to-PCM on the fly (should be on a wish list), but eventually the ISO is worth having (for archiving and backup if nothing else).
Cplay will not work on dsd. I use sox (in an offline way) but I dont know if it converts dsd to pcm. Next communication will be via email.
#1 It has to be a PS3 that plays the DSD layer of an SACD. This means that it must be a 20GB, 60GB or first generation 80GB model (there are two versions of the 80GB model). Another way of looking at it is that it has to be able to play PS2 games. There's a chip on the motherboard that allows this for these models, but it doesn't exist in any of the other models.
#2 The firmware must be v3.55 or lower.
Just remember not to tell anyone. It'll be our little secret. *wink wink*
"How do I convert to hi res files w/o buying a sony playstation with secret model number?"
If you're adamant about not going the PS3 route, unless you want to mod/rewire/solder/etc an SACD capable player or don't mind a DSD-PCM conversion and adding jitter to the file or have gobs of money to spend on pro equipment, you could steal one, rent one or pay someone to do the conversion for you.
Below is plenty of info about the PS3 method of SACD ripping:
I'm sure ted_b , a very nice gentleman who posts here at AA and at computeraudiophile.com, would be willing to send you his guide to ripping SACDs via the PS3. I would read his guide first, just to see if it's worth your time to find one of those "secret" PS3 models.
You can:
1. Modify a high quality Universal player with such as the last Pioneer series to output digital dsd as dsdR, dsdL and bit clock for playback in a compatrible dac such as the ESS Buffalo and Buffalo 2.
2. Use an hdmi auido stream splitter to get 176.k pcm output from a PS3.
3. Rip dff files from a hacked PS3 which must support sacd and have firmware below a certain version.
The last method is not easy and one is still left with the question of how good the PS3 is at the job. There is also an uncertainly about how players such as JRiver and others handle the dff files (are there pcm conversion within the software?).
Of the first 2 methods, 1 is better and sounds really good. It also saves you a lot of work.
You can search on all 3 methods but don't even think of using a cheapish sacd player.
"Modify a high quality Universal player with such as the last Pioneer series to output digital dsd as dsdR, dsdL and bit clock for playback in a compatrible dac such as the ESS Buffalo and Buffalo 2."
Do you know if these signals are compatible with the SDIF interface, e.g. that used by the Mytek Stereo 192-DSD DAC? Would any level conversions be needed? What about cabling, connectors and pin-outs?
[The Mastering version of the Mytek Stereo 192-DSD DAC allows one to import the DSD to the computer as well as play it through the built in SABRE DAC.]
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
At the Chesky sales desk, they had two Myteks set up with Pure Music on a Mac Mini to demo files, including DSD. I started talking with the guy behind the desk, not realizing he was the designer, to ask him about the Mytek since my friend was thinking about getting one. Even though the XMOS and the Sabre will both go higher than 192, he only has 192 implemented with this DAC, and of course DSD DFF files, but they are rare.
The DSD input on the Mytek is through the USB port, not through i2s. If there was an i2s input, you could hack a player and use that output into the Sabre chip. I have this setup with my Buffalo II DAC, but I don't use it often because I have to change the i2s cables inside the case to use it with the way I have it setup now.
-Aaron.
I use the Mytek and am a beta tester for Michal (the Polish accented designer you spoke with :) ). As stated earlier, I have loads of DSD files, with download sites coming on, and 360 SACD's ripped (about 3600 DSF or DIFF files) and the Mytek (along with my Meitner MA-1 DAC, and now a handful of other DSD-capable DACs) play native DSD wonderfully through USB. Pure Music, Audirvana Plus, JRiver, Foobar...a number of good hi-end software players can play native DSD (i.e no PCM conversion necessary).The Mytek DACs can use, for DSD, the 2.0 USB, firewire, or SDIF (if mastering version and SDIF outputted source)inputs. The preamp sells for the very "obtanium" price of under $1650. :)
Edits: 04/29/12
"The preamp sells for the very "obtanium" price of under $1650. :)"
Check the delivery? Last time I checked there was a backlog.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
You never asked me...I have connections. :) Seriously, Michal and gang are getting the backlog taken care of very well now.
As I reported elsehwere (and I thought here) the PCM performance of the Mytek is 2nd only to my $7K Meitner MA-1 for musicality, tonality, image density and well-controlled but realistic frequency extremes. No, it doesn't do 24/384k like my Antelope Gold or M2tech Young DACs did, but so what. As I've said, it needs 500+ hours to do this, though. My comparisons are against several very good DACS, including the much pricier Antelope Gold (which only matches it if you are using a less than stellar preamp for the Mytek, as the Gold excels in its relay stepped attenuator remote volume function). My wish list for the Mytek is a beefier power supply, as I think it would stomp several weight classes above it if so, but budget restraints are real for a $1600 DSD dac
Thanks for the input.
There are different versions of the Mytek DAC. The preamp version has analog inputs and the digital inputs are SPDIF and USB. The mastering version replaces the analog inputs with DSD inputs, which enable one to connect a professional DSD transport to the DAC and play the DSD or transfer the DSD to the computer. (At least that's my understanding after studying the manual.)
I suspect the preamp version was at the show. I will probably buy a version of this DAC, after it becomes a bit less "unobtainium".
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
The XMOS chip is capable of passing DSD to a compatible DAC, and the Mytek "preamp" version is able to do so. Is there any benefit to using the "Mastering" version with the DSD (i2s?) inputs as BNC's on the back instead of going through the USB?
I guess you could use a hacked player to connect to the Mytek that way, but if you have the skills to hack a player, you probably have the skills to build a Twisted Pear Buffalo, which could do both if you had an XMOS Reference Design. Well, it couldn't be an analog preamp....
-Aaron.
As far as I know, there are only reasons to get the Mastering version rather than the preamp version:
1. The price is about $100 lower, which might matter to someone who already has a preamp or who has no analog sources.
2. It can be used to take DSD extracted in the form of an SDIF signal and put it into a file in the computer. This is an inexpensive way of capturing the output of a DSD analog to digital converter or (more likely of interest to audiophiles) solving the second half of the problem of ripping SACDs. Unfortunately, solving the first part remains either expensive or requires DIY hardware and/or software skills.
I am waiting reports for how this product sounds, especially when playing PCM files, as these are the vast majority of my library.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
The sdif interface used in the Mytek seems to be two wire w/o bit clock. The 3 wire system is better. Voltage compatibility should be no problem.
You can probably modify the Mytek for 3 wire input.
There appears to be far too many issues with software vendors making provisions for plyuback on the Mytek. Many of the posts by these people are just jibberish; I don't think they know what they have been saying.
I have just tried JRiver 17 with DFF files. Not sure how it is handled or whether there are pcm conversions but it sounds good.
There are direct input pins to the Buffalo CAC; the information is in the manual. Russ White has done it for 2-3 years.
The Sony Playstation is the only affordable solution.
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Actually, soldering 3 wires is easier than messing with the PS3.
For audio use, I want to change the hard drive to a ssd and do fan mods to reduce speed. This requires a strip down which will take quite a n effort before going on to the firware/software changes.
For you a soldering iron might be second nature, but for many people a soldering iron might as well be a blowtorch 'cause they can't solder worth a damn. Might as well let a kid do it so they don't have to blame you know who.
As for the fan mods, why go through the trouble with a box that's only used for ripping? You don't play through the PS3, you rip so that you can play on another more convenient device. Like, say... a computer.
If you can figure out how to use a screwdriver, you can change out the hard drive on one of the "secret" PS3 models in about 5 minutes -- no soldering iron needed.
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