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In Reply to: RE: This is posted by fmak on April 09, 2012 at 10:29:25
I've heard that different computers print to the same printer much differently. And the USB cable, along with the quality of the power supply, and the version of the driver one uses, and the number of processes running in the background, along with many other computer-related configurations, can have a dramatic "night and day" difference between the quality of printouts!In fact, I've heard that a Windows PC, running 64-bit Windows 7 (Home, not Professional!) prints far better than any Macintosh. Maybe I need to create a stand-alone print-only server-style PC just for printing...I bet the results will be amazing!
Edits: 04/10/12Follow Ups:
n/t
If Scrith's posts here over the years are any indication, his hearing ability wouldn't allow him to distinguish the sound of his audio system from the sound of early 80's matrix printer, going full bore. In double-blind ABX test, of course.
Then, of course, his posts in this thread take on the whole new meaning...
My hearing will always be better than yours because I am not influenced by expectations, advertising, and manufacturer claims, like the simple-minded folk around here who let the opinions of others dictate how good their equipment sounds. You are a simple follower of this sad crowd, and whenever your comments are questioned, you have no useful reply except to attack the hearing of the individual that questions your basic lack of logic and sense. Sad. Just plain sad. Please get a life and stop attacking members here personally and try to use the brain that resides somewhere between those deaf ears to come up with something original and intelligent to say (I know, this is asking a lot based on what we've seen from you here, but I'm optimistic that at some point in your life you might mature into a respectable human being).
It would even be funny - if it wasn't so sad. Long career in video games development notwithstanding.
regarding his assertion that a “good” DAC should be “immune” to the upstream source (full disclosure: I have the same DAC he does).
Just this winter, I finally got into PC audio after watching from the sidelines for a couple of years. The main thing holding me back was nervosa that it would be difficult to get the “right” combination of hardware and software for optimal sound. Reading these forums gave me the impression that all kinds of stuff makes a big difference . . . and I figured I’d risk “broken” sonics if I didn’t get it just so.
Now that I’ve made the plunge, I’m finding that all these “crazy” tweaks make little to no difference in SQ. In my system/room, I hear only very small differences in: 1) choice of music player (I’ve tried Foobar, JRMC, Jplay, cPlay, and HQPlayer); 2) my dedicated, optimized PC and a generic laptop; 3) the stock USB cable and an expensive aftermarket; and 4) memory play v not. Not that I care to try but I probably could not pass a DBT with any of those. Meanwhile, I can hear no difference whatsoever btw: 1) FLAC and WAV; and 2) music files stored on my SSD v external HDD.
To be clear, I think Scrith is over-the-top to poo-poo so many consistent reports of improved SQ regarding the various tweaks but I also think the “tweak” crowd is over-the-top in claiming dramatic improvements. IMO, the “truth” lies somewhere in betwixt and starting with a “good” DAC (asych, galvanically-isolated) is a smart way to circumvent most of the nervosa.
"Reading these forums gave me the impression that all kinds of stuff makes a big difference . . . and I figured I'd risk "broken" sonics if I didn't get it just so"
I think we can use this as the standing definition for COMPUTER audiophile nervosa. Every single variable in a living breathing computer OS makes a difference, and there are 1 x 10^237 iterations of these variables. Must try each one in late night subjective listening tests.
Must OPTIMIZE everything. Must SYNERGIZE everything. Must TWEAK everything. And I mean the differences are 'NOT SUBTLE' and 'WIFE HEARD IT IN THE NEXT ROOM' differences. Or, (this is my favorite) 10 or so tweaks or setting changes may not be individually audible but COLLECTIVELY they add up to sonic nirvana.
If this subgroup of AA did not eventually come down to 100% total audiophile nervosa, well, it wouldn't belong on this particular site now would it!! ;)
Cheers,
Presto
> > > 'WIFE HEARD IT IN THE NEXT ROOM'
Or "component X BLOWS AWAY component Y". Of course, *I* think my Ayre AX-7 "blew away" the NAD receiver it replaced . . . I guess I can be as hypocritical as anyone.
> > > If this subgroup of AA did not eventually come down to 100% total audiophile nervosa
The one regret I have about getting into PC audio is that, so far, I've been far too prone to trying to get better SQ thru' the tweaks rather than just enjoying the music.
... as opposed to "just" music lover.
Computer audio simply gives you many more variables to tweak, but even without it, one can keep himself pretty busy with cables, footers, power tweaks, crystals etc.
I know I do - not all the time though. Sometimes I lose interest in tweaking temporarily, and simply enjoy the music. Usually it's right after I get my hands on a new CD by one of my favorite bands - like right now for instance, with new Eisregen CD (ltd. ed. digipack in A5 format), pictured below.
This applies to ALL things audiophile, INCLUDING Computer Audio.I think that us getting nervosa about it means that computer audio has finally come of age and instead of merely just being impressed, we're now on to the NEXT stage:
Obsession.
Cheers,
Presto
Edits: 04/11/12
surprising that this phantom 'analogy' has been taken seriously by experienced audio inmates.
Hi Scrith,
you left out the time element. Do all computers print out the doc in the same time frame? Are the same words printed at the same time after you press print? Or are there some variations based on all kind of os and hardware issues?
Certainly you arent saying that the same printer with 10 differently configured computers ALWAYS prints out in the same time with the same document?
And this "argument" of yours misses the boat much like the argument about flac. Often the example is a zip file of a spread sheet. Like the zip file, flac gives you all the data. Sure you still endup looking at the same spreadsheet but what you have to do to look at it and the time it takes is all different. It isnt the SAME experience. By that logic taking the 405 to I10 is the same as taking 101. I mean they both can get you to LA. Though only a crazy person would equate the to as being IDENTICAL.
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
I think we can all agree that having to spend an hour on a congested freeway to get to a concert in downtown LA (vs. walking over to the Lincoln Center from The Plaza) is going to detract from the concert experience. :-)Your question is a good one: will having to unzip a file before printing it reduce the print quality?
Edits: 04/10/12
I never asked about unzipping a file before printing. So I dont know what you are talking about.
Anyhow a better analogy is to have 3 identical computers and 3 identical printers and get them to print the same letters at the same time. To start and stop in unison.
Could you do that if they were running different programs concurrently? Different services?? Different OS?
Would just one computer and printer start and stop at the same speeds if different programs were running? Different services??
Afterwards we discovered faith; it's all you need
Very well done but as we all know those of us who play with audio the rules are not the same as they are for other devices.
Just as the ear is far more demanding than the eye - we may think the print quality is the same but the truth could be we cannot perceive the differences so the eye isw oblivious to the very fine differences.
We are cursed with ears that are quite good, especially when "trained" through years of listening to music, and most importantly the voice, at hearing minute differences.
(I am amused that someone would be surprised that A MAC could sound bad. Oh, my, how can that be?)
I have found there is much that can be done to make a computer a good transport. When one is done the computer IS a transport since that is all it can do but it is handy having lots of stuff available in a moment from the HDD.
I cannot imagine an "off the shelf" computer making a good transport.
Saying a computer as a transport cannot make any difference is as silly as saying all transports sound the same. Of course, if they do for you then I consider you lucky since you attain satisfaction for either little money or little effort.
N/T
Bats, dogs, dolphins, etc. have good ears... humans, not so much...
You just have to look at the neuro anatomy to see how much of our brains go into visual processing vs. the little bit going into auditory processing (compare this further to the tiny bit going into olfactory processing). This isn't to say that sound isn't perceived reasonably well with compelling experiences, but human hearing is extremely limited by bandwidth (20-20kHz), dynamic range, and localization in the animal kingdom.
I don't know what kind of 'training' would help perceive the kind of imperfections good equipment is capable of these days. Furthermore, I don't consider hearing to be good enough to feel 'cursed' (LOL).
Not to other animals.
What difference could that make to the discussion?
I thought we were talking about human perception?
Combined with the fact that some audio systems are more revealing than others (sometimes MUCH more revealing), and the fact that some people have more open mind than others - gives you the reason for all this nonsensical "controversy".
Pretty good test, that I suggest everybody performs on themselves, to determine whether your system and hearing are up to snuff:
Flip the direction of a mains fuse in one of the components in your system.
If you can hear the difference in sound quality the flip makes - congratulations. If not - time to think about upgrading, and/or checking the hearing.
Cuz all the power plugs in my system have a ground so I can't willy-nilly flip polarity around.
Only the cheapest Sony boom box I have can do this.
N/T
...120VAC is a symmetrical, sinusoidal alternative waveform, right?
So... the fuse is seeing current flow in both directions irrespective of it's orientation in the fuse holder. The fuse itself may even have largely symmetrical construction.
Don't discount "power of the mind" when doing these tests.
Cheers,
Presto
... you could familiarize yourself with the subject, and the theories why fuse direction affects the sound.The fuse itself may even have largely symmetrical construction. - according to these theories, this is where you're wrong. I'm not a mechanical engineer, and not a specialist in metallurgy - but, apparently, it has to do with manufacturing process of the wire.
But more importantly - why don't you perform this very simple, and absolutely FREE, test, and let us know the results?
Edits: 04/11/12 04/11/12
Then it MUST be true!
Most fuse elements are symmetrical. Some are wound, and in one direction or another. This could represent small DC and AC inductances. However, the applied voltage in a power system is 120VAC, alternating. Each "direction" of the fuse sees current for 1/120th of a second - once in the positive going direction and once in the negative going direction. AC current does not "flow", it's a very messy migration of free electrons in one direction and then the other. Besides, if you look at any "coil" (or just a common spring) from each end, you'll find that it it "wound" in one direction or another, and that direction DOES NOT CHANGE when you flip the fuse/spring/coil around.
So, regardless of "fuse direction", the fuse element sees current in both directions.
Only fuses in a DC system could be said to have a "polarity", but even then it would be arguable that the fuse itself (as a node between two fuse clips) would be electrically identical regardless of orientation. This is barring, of course, theoretical arguments of "micro-diodic action" - in a metal with no semiconductor material in it.
These are people who change socks and hear differences. I am going to leave it at that. This is not the forum for it anyways.
If you like your fuses in a certain "direction" go for it.
So let me ask you this. If you have a double insulated component and there is no ground on the primary
Cheers,
Presto
The link below - fresh post by Unclestu on Tweakers - is as good of a start as anything.But more importantly - have you tried it yet?
Edits: 04/14/12
There are two potential kinds of symmetry and the presence of either one of these will make the other irrelevant. The asymmetry of the wire in the fuse is the first element. For signal wires, there will be obvious asymmetry in the audio signals (due to even harmonic distortion or other polarity effects) and that will provide the second element. Hence it is reasonable to assume that reversing a fuse that's in the signal path might have an effect on the waveform arriving at the speakers and ultimately one's ears.
A power supply fuse is not in the direct signal path and it is processing a nominally symmetric AC waveform. One would expect, therefore that the effect of power fuse polarity would be less than signal fuse polarity . The amount would also depend on the quality of one's AC power, including the time of day and what devices were nearby and connected (especially connected to the same circuit, breaker panel, or distribution transformer). There might also be an interaction with fuse polarity in the holder and AC plug polarity, when using products with two wire plugs and/or cheater plugs. The better the design of the power supply, the less the effect AC fuse polarity should have on the sound. Since the effect of power fuse polarity is likely to be system dependent and vary with the time of day and day of the week, the only way to know what the effect might be is to try it.
By the way, bypassing the fuses completely might further improve sound quality, but doing so could be foolish and might result in loss of the equipment, fire, or even death. It would void the component's warranty and in the event of a fire might void one's fire insurance. So, don't try this at home! Swapping fuse ends ought to be safe enough if done when the component is unplugged. And doing so might improve the sound even if polarity does not prove to be important as a new contact is a clean contact. One must keep this in mind when conducting tests of fuse polarity, otherwise one may confuse cleanliness with polarity.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Sure... Will try next time there's a need to open something up.
.
"In this land right now, some are insane and they're in charge. To hell with poverty, we'll get drunk on cheap wine."
Agree.This is why I think those hung up on hardware minutiae are wrong.
Edits: 04/09/12
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