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In Reply to: another catch 22 posted by Mart on June 26, 2000 at 21:40:10:
Hi Mart,
this tale goes back to the 70's; so dig out some polyester.
American car campanies were having a wee bit of trouble with the new rules.
So... my understanding is the catalytic converter was a compromise. They couldn't make an engine as efficient as the Japanese; so their engines could remain larger and less efficient. They just had to add a converter. At this point in time, the Japanese cars met the requirements without having to resort to converters.
But, who wanted to roll around in a death trap incapable of getting out of itsown way. It's a wonder these were capable to get out of potholes. I've seen most of these cars slow down as they climbed even small hills (30 degree inclines over 200 yards). These cars were notoriously incapable of meeting the 30mph impact tests w/o any crumple zones which were inflicted on domestic cars. Plus, foreign cars met the standards becaus they were underpowered (ie: a traffic hazard). So, the safely powered vehicles were made vastly more ineefficient by the earlier catalytic converters if you remember. 1st rule of thumb was so smash these into resonators & gain 10mpg & 50bhp.
Hi Mart,
I bought a Ford Pinto in 1975. Personally i don't see this as a 'domestic safe' vs 'foreign unsafe' issue. Put a 100K in that rolling molotov cocktail.
As to safety, small cars can be safe. The solution is not only simple; it has been in place in other countries for years. Btw, my wife's Honda Accord EX is the sporty version. It's acceleration is terrific; and it's handling is better than most. And it's a 4 banger.
Which is to say, that if you remove the political element; the policy, and the engineering, to dramatically improve safety and use smaller cars, already exists.
And if we were to do that, there would be less pollution, reduced medical costs (both from direct effects, and indirect like lung diseases), improves the trade balance, reduces dependency on foreign energy, and lower insurance costs. Damn, i've half saved the world and it ain't even 9 AM yet
I've been in a Honda Accord EX it almost yawns when floored. Where or where is that reassuring, pavement-melting, blood-curdling, tire-agonizing scream that has saved my life & limb from traffic hazards in the past? It hardly bolted. All I heard was a chirp. No thrust at all. I don't think I felt even one-G laterally.And, I'd feel safer in a Pinto anyways. Hell, weld a 6"x6" piece of sheet metal to the floor boards behind the differential like my brother did in '74. I seen people walk away from a Pinto accident. Sadly, can't say the same from a Honda.
Hi,
require that basic safety standards be met (which is what i was implying), and those concerns would be answered. If i read you correctly; you are using massive amounts of horsepower to exit a hazardous situation.
What you want to do is stay clear of those situations; it's called Defensive Driving. As we get older (and the reflexes slow); ii becomes the only alternative.
In any case, if you are "melting pavement" i suspect the real reason has zip to do with safety.
Defensive driving works with a moron on the road at one time, not two. Plus, I don't consider anything below 400bhp/400ft-lb massive. I was talking about a mere 250-300 in a 2500-3000lb car.BTW, when did weight start to mean mass? Every HS grad knows its the gravitational force excerted on the mass. Who thought up this absurdity? I suppose the same genius that bastardized "lbs" into "lbm". Thus, recreating the need for "lbf" because "lbs" is now vague. Although, "lbs" is identical to "lbf".
Hi Mart,
i have driven roughly a half a million miles. And my experience reminds me of that old saying about 'old pilots, and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots'. Defensive driving works, so do coroners.
The power to weight ratio was very handy eons ago at describing
just how hot the original Shelby Cobra was. The average car of the 70's
was a any brand Japanese special sporting 100 hp on 2000lb for a 20 to 1
ratio. That's about middle of the road. Most sports cars are in the teens;
a roughly 3K package with a few hundred horsepower.
The hottest Cobra sported a ratio close to 5 to 1. Ok, so it was closer to 6 to 1 than 5. But just try equaling that with any car you can throw a licence on. Roughly 2500lbs dry, and nearly 500 hp. Mama mia.
Anyway, you seem to be describing a 10 to 1 ratio, which by any reasonable standard is hot.
FWIW, it's what I call able to get out of itsown way. I call 20:1 hot, & 5:1 a lethargic road hazard. Why somebody wants to call a statue a vehicle is beyond me. Don't get me wrong, I don't speed more than the next guy (probably less than even you). But if somethings going down, I'm not there anymore.
xxx
Yeah, just was there thanks. I only heard on an A10 like that. I think it was a Discovery "Wings" program where a Warthog was on a wild weisel mission when he said he spotted a juicy target. He knew his wingman no longer had his wing, but that he grew ONE eyebrow & claws. So, as he killed the target a SAM got him. He spun the clogged engine & it indeed ejected the wing shrapnel as designed & it functioned again. Then, he noticed that he could see his landing gear, that remained folded under the structure, which was all that remained of his wing. He indicted that the cockpit was impecable but the flight crew haven't found the seat cushion to date.
Ever thought about starting the Late-Mart show?I could be your frequent guest.
depends ... can I get a BAT VK SACD players ??? [chuckle]
'Specially at Mart. Mart, it's true that anyone who took high school physics knows that weight and mass aren't the same thing; but anybody who got better than a "C" in the course knows that, as long as you're on earth, the difference is not material. On this planet, a kilo of mass is a kilo of weight. If you're on the moon, a kilo of mass is less than a kilo of weight. If you're in geosynchronus orbit a kilo of mass is zero kilos of weight. The only relevance I can see to any of this is that, if you're hauling ass down the luna-2 highway and you wanna stop quick, your brakes have to be just as good as they do here on earth, even though your vehicle weighs less. That's cause its mass is the same in both places. Last time I checked, Luna-2 highway hadn't been built yet. Maybe they had to think about that when they built the "lunar rover" that our astronauts took on one of the later Apollo moon missions; but I doubt it.But the one that really blows my drawers off is the argument that you need the equivalent of a top fuel dragster on the public roads "to get away from trouble." What kind of trouble would that be, Matt? A blue and white car with lots of colored lights flashing on the top that suddenly appears in your rear view mirror? The only trouble I worry about *behind* me is a speeding semi or inter-city bus which I know can't stop in less than 1 kilometer. But, just about anything will out accelerate one of those behemoths. Most of the trouble I worry about on the road is in front of me; and I'm closing the distance on that trouble more quickly than I would like. The answer to that problem is swept braking area, not cubic inches of engine displacement. The second answer to that problem is a car that is not dynamically unstable, i.e. one that you can steer out of trouble without having the car steer you.
I'll be the first to admit that a highly positive delta vee is, literally, a great kick in the pants. But a "safety item" ? Gimme a break. A sub ten second 0-60 time, which works out to about 200 hp in a typical mid-sized car is reasonable. Under 8 seconds is plenty fast. Under 7 seconds is going to get most drivers in more trouble than they can handle before they know what to do about it.
And, unless you have your own private highway (also known as a "racetrack"), you have to think about the other schmucks on the road with you. Most of them don't drive looking constantly in the rearview mirror. So, they may see you hauling ass behind them, but they won't see you long enough to accurately calculate your speed or your delta vee. So, if you're closing their rear at 30 mph (i.e, they're going 70 and you're going 100) or if you're accelerating to 100 mph in about four seconds, you're going to be next to them in the passing lane before they expect you to be there. And that means trouble.
How about the constant male juveniles who're convinced they're "playing pole position". They may've fast reaction times but I've got the experience to detect when their cars are going to brake traction. I've avoided many accidents that way. Then, there's the females juvies that don't believe in lines or traffic signs. I've missed a few more that way as they were appoaching an intersection & we're both unable to stop before hand. You can either not be there by stopping or punching it. It pays to have both options. Survivability goes up an order of magnitude.So I have street gears on my 120mph capable Challenger, what's the problem? I don't need to be able to flee the cops. I've been in afforementioned vehicle as a passenger. I aint driving one. Being able to chirp the tires from acceleration while already doing 120mph, is frighteningly freaky. No thanks. I'm alive & wish to stay that way. Plus, I like 19mpg instead of his 9mpg. Yes, neither Mopar were stock.
Boy, I can't stop. ROTFLMAO!!! This is as good as it ever gets.Thank you, Bruce. I think you have done your host duties for today.
OTOH, I am torn. In my mind, a *CAR* should be able to go twice the speed limit with no problem. ANY speed limit. So forget that mass/weight science, but make sure you have at least the Z-rated things on. When I see a good stretch, I do the double - so see the "Mart's Criteria", or MC. Usually you run out of the highway way too soon.
Thanks again, this is a nice group. Keep it that way.
You're dangerous! I wouldn't recommend MC for you. 2nd childhood, maybe?
You're the host, big guy. Hehe
...you know, the one those clowns love to wear.See ya there! News at nine...
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