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In Reply to: geez Victor, sorry if it hurts to expand your mind a bit posted by Kurt Morgan on May 28, 2002 at 12:11:51:
Follow Ups:
Look, I never meant to be insulting to anyone. In fact, I thought I was being complementary to the jewish people by impling that they would be a great benefit to America. I would love to see the jews succeed as a people with a state of their own. How is that insulting?Maybe my suggestion is asinine (it's certainly out there) but until you explain why you think so, you're only demostrating an inability to think creatively. Tell us why, exactly, this idea is so offensive.
The idea is insulting because Jews have been in that region for 5,000 years. And before you break your arm patting yourself on the back for your "creative" thinking, this idea has come up all over the place, even on this board not too long ago. I believe it was PeteW who proposed setting up Israel in Utah. At the time I replied that I thought it was already a Mormon state.If you need another reason why I think your suggestion is asinine: because the world cannot cave to terrorism. Each time you cave, you reward this behavior in the Islamic world; a new generation is taught that murder can be used to achieve their ends. So where does it stop? Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. What if Muslims one day want a separatist state of Michigan? (Is that the kind of creative thinking you were looking for?)
If you need another reason: the great thing about America is separation of church and state. Without that, you can't have an open society. You can't have a democracy. The idea of setting up a Jewish state within the U.S. is idiotic. Israel itself is not a purely Jewish state.
"The"?Not the Constitution? Not the heritage of the Founders? Not equal protection under the law? Not the free economy? Not even the people?
"*The* great thing" is one phrase lifted from a letter of Thomas Jefferson?
Hmmmm...
clark
Clark, I humbly submit that without the separation of church and state, the other great things about America--including those you rightly mention--could not practically be implemented.
First, let me apologize if this issue is old news. I thought it an intriging new idea for philisophical debate.OK, let me respond. You say "The idea is insulting because Jews have been in that region for 5,000 years". Isn't it true that jews have been all over the place for over 5,000 years? Isn't the whole idea of wanting a jewish state because the population has been so dispersed and often persecuted as minorities in other countries? Certainly, the jews don't have some specific right to any land in particular. I mean, there were people living in the region long before there were jews - human civilization goes back way before the birth of the jewish religion. It seems to me that wanting this particular piece of land is do to its historical significance in the religion. That's fine but as we know, there is a hell of a price to pay given how everyone else in the region feels. So I guess what I'm saying is do the jews want their own state or do they want their own state in a land that was at one time was predominately jewish but sure the hell isn't anymore. If it's the latter, like I said, best of luck.
As far as caving to terrorism, that, in my opinion, is a sure fire way to ensure it continues UNLESS you're willing to do what the Americans did to the Indians - eliminate them off the face of the planet.
If the Muslims wanted a separatist state in US and they were as "one the same page" as the jews are with the Americans, it could be considered a possiblity. Considering how 'off the page' they are, I don't think it's possible.
Lastly, I don't fully understand the point of your last paragraph. If a separation of church and state is ingrained in American, how does Israel not being purley jewish conflict with the original idea I've posed.
> > Isn't it true that jews have been all over the place for over 5,000 years? < <No, Jews emerged in what is now Egypt 5,000 years ago. Israel has historic and religious significance.
> > Isn't the whole idea of wanting a jewish state because the population has been so dispersed and often persecuted as minorities in other countries? < <
Yes, and now there is a Jewish state and all people like you can do is talk about removing and relocating Jews. Very backward of you. This is the exact same BS that has been going on for eons. "Let's just put the Jews in this ghetto. Let's just steal their land and put them in concentration camps. Let's just move them to Long Island." I find it all extremely insulting.
No one asked the Nazis to try to kill every single Jew in Europe and no one asked the Arabs to side with the Nazis in WWII. The Nazis lost, the arabs got their asses kicked. Jews got their own state. These were positive developments. And I grow tired of people putting a negative spin on it. Islamists are hoping terrorism will net them the political gains they seek, but the world has to teach them that terrorism will be met with an extremely harsh response.
> > Certainly, the jews don't have some specific right to any land in particular. < <
If we're going to be a civilized world and have internationally recognized borders, I honestly don't see how you can say this. Israel exists. It has existed for decades as a sovereign nation. Palestinians have been on the losing end of countless wars, including the Gulf war when Yasser, in his infinite wisdom, bet on Saddam. When you lose wars, you can't go back, no matter how much the world likes to sacrifice Jews, or how many UN resolutions you pass against Israel.
> > It seems to me that wanting this particular piece of land is do to its historical significance in the religion. That's fine but as we know, there is a hell of a price to pay given how everyone else in the region feels. < <
Not "everone else". Muslims. Ask Lebanese Christians whether they prefer Jews or Muslims in the region.
> > So I guess what I'm saying is do the jews want their own state or do they want their own state in a land that was at one time was predominately jewish but sure the hell isn't anymore. < <
Land doesn't belong to anyone. You have to buy it, conquer and hold it, or squat and hope no one kicks you off. You can't arbitrarily adopt new rules after what happened to Jews in Europe.
> > If it's the latter, like I said, best of luck. < <
Israel doesn't need luck. It has nuclear weapons. The Palestinians need luck, because Arabs are waging a proxy war on Israel through them--a losing effort if ever there was one--and one day Israel is going to put a stop to it once and for all, unless Arabs do first.
> > As far as caving to terrorism, that, in my opinion, is a sure fire way to ensure it continues UNLESS you're willing to do what the Americans did to the Indians - eliminate them off the face of the planet. < <
We are looking at a much different situation in the Middle East than settlers and American Indians. You have not addressed my point of caving to terrorism. You've merely offered a weak analogy that doesn't hold any water. Caving to terrorism is adding madness to madness. What is your point?
> > Lastly, I don't fully understand the point of your last paragraph. If a separation of church and state is ingrained in American, how does Israel not being purley jewish conflict with the original idea I've posed. < <
Your whole thrust is that we take all the Jews in Israel and put them somewhere in the U.S., ostensibly to set up Israel here. That isn't exactly in step with the ideals of the U.S., and if you said the same thing about Palestinians you'd have people jumping up and down calling you a racist. Jews and everyone else are free in this country to live wherever we want. If Israeli Jews want to come here, they can without forcing a relocation of Jews from Israel. Again, I find your idea repulsive and insulting, and predictably it has invited likeminded replies. You're basically saying that you don't think we should fight a war against terrorism in the middle east, so we might as well capitulate and Jews will have to be removed from their land as a result. Believe me, I read you loud and clear.
I am not a racist. As a human hopeful that peace is possible, I simply wanted to explore the options - all options. That said, you've made some very good points but don't be angry at me. One point I think you are wrong about. I never said anyone should "force a relocation", only open up our collective arms to a people we respect. Another point I would disagree with is "Israel doesn't need luck". The hell is doesn't! All the nukes, tanks and guns in the world can't deter the fundamentalists and there are WAY more of them then there are jews. I sincerely wish them luck because they will need it. As far as terrorism, you made your point that you believe one must fight. I simply disagree. The strongest, the bravest have the balls to walk away from madness. Your pride will kill you (along with grandmas, children, and everyone else that dares to go into a public place in Israel). Like I said, best of luck.
confronted with the sight of a one year old baby. With half it's face blown off. Ever. At some point, with your back turned, you realise it may be easier to turn and face the stones. Rather than meekly hope they stop. "The strongest, the bravest have the balls to walk away from madness." Myself, when I walk away from a fight, it's because I simply can't be bothered with cutting my knuckles on some bozoid's teeth. Or tearing a shirt. Or trashing some chi chi sunglasses. But, when I chose to stand and deliver, it is because sometimes it's just a lot easier than going out of my way. It is a concious decision I make. Not based on fear, anger or pride. Life is not worth much if you share it with murderers. In fact it's worth nothing. So, feel free to share your world with whomever you like. Does this mean there is something of merit in killing grandmas sharing an afternoon with their tiny grandchild? Because they are living life. Instead of running from sick f*cks who would pretend there is some majesty in snuffing out the life of a baby? Victor is right, what a waste of bandwidth.
You're a hawk, I'm not. I avoid the destructive nature of humanity at all cost (without a belief in organized religion, it's all I have the separates me from common animals). Call me a pussy, a pacifist, a hippy, whatever. I'll live my life without killing, or dying for a country, a religion, or a cause. You'll die with the rest of proud folks. I'll be elsewhere if at all possible and I'm very comfortable and confident in that.
Believe it or not, someone can see things completely different than you and still not be a hawk. Quit trying to pigeon-hole and label people.
I should not have labeled you - I apologize
with a physical threat to your person? Me, a hawk, hardly. I'm as hippie dippy peace loving as they come (believe it!). But that gives no one the right to assault my person. I respond at my discretion. I live in a major metropolitan area. Plenty of *ssholes, not enough turlit seats to put them on. I'm usually long gone before there is even a hint of confrontation.
before aggession starts. I believe one needs to be proactive in preventing violence. One must approach life with flexibility, and open mind, and a sense of empathy to achieve on-going peace. Something that most nations do not do well at all, IMO.To your question, when faced with aggression, I've always managed to settle the confrontation without killing or even hurting anyone. I long ago imposed a self restriction on violence and have always managed to find another way, another solution to any potentially violent situation. Without that restriction, it's far to easy to resort to duking it out.
encountering a person who is beyond any reason. Luck seems to be with you. On one occasion three years ago, I was with a person who was recovering from large invasive surgery a couple of weeks prior. Avoidance just wasn't possible. The only option was to deal with the pest. The entire event was very calm and measured. I hope that you continue to enjoy your peaceful kharma. As I do. But I always pay attention to my surroundings. And am always ready, should my thinking fail to keep me out of the path of those who aren't as mellow.
Well I never said you were a racist. I said if you were proposing the other side of the equation and implying that Palestinians should be relocated, you would be called a racist (but not by me).Jews have been walking away from people who want to kill them since time immemorial. Who are you to say it's braver to walk away yet again, rather than take a stand? Who are you to say what is worth fighting for, or to what extent luck is involved? It's your opinion. Nothing more.
nt
I didn't say the "idea" was offensive, just completely empty.Have you ever heard of Birobidjan? Looks like Joe Stalin beat you to the hollow punch by some fifty years.
nt
and now see that I'm not the only crazy thinking mother! In any case, I found nothing as to why it failed. Can you explain?
Why what failed? Stalin's planned forced relocation of all Soviet Jews to that remote region? We shall probably never know why it was called off, but all Jews who lived in the USSR in the early fifties remember the fear and anticipation, the rumors of cattle trains on the ready at the stations, awaiting just the command. Not surprising, if one was old enough to remember what was done to Crimea Tartars few years prior to that.So it never failed, the plan simply was never implemented. There are still some Jews living there - I think about 3000 of them - voluntarily.
"I don't know why it was called off"...
Hi Victor: It is my understanding that in early 50's there was an internal fight, this time against Beria. The affair of "Murderers in white coats" were last event before Stalin dies either by natural causes or poisoned by Beria. Immidiately after his death, all (prominent) Jewish prisoners were free. Thus, on surface, Stain death was a reason for "calling it off". Simon
Force anything on anybody and they'll likely resist. Human nature I suppose.
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