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I recently acquired the complete Beethoven Symphonies yet again (you can't get much more "standard repertoire" than that!), this time in the famous Karajan early 60's performances on DG. (They were recorded in 61/62 and released in 63.) This of course is a celebrated set of the works, and it's been reissued, remastered, and who knows what else numerous times - it's one of those iconic recordings that's probably never been out of the catalogue.
I used to have some (not all) of these performances in my LP days, but the new incarnation (newly remastered!) of the set on blu-ray audio (24/96, 2-channel - all the symphonies on one disc BTW!) is my first re-acquaintance with with them after decades. I must say that they really are great performances, and the engineering is amazingly good (recorded in the days before DG's Tonmeisters started becoming more "interventionist", using oodles of microphones - as in the Carlos Kleiber/VPO Fifth and Seventh symphonies). As I wrote over on the Hi-Rez forum here, the sound on the Karajan set IMHO occupies that sweet spot between detail and spaciousness, and there's almost a sensuousness about the sound quality that's very gratifying - although one doesn't usually associate the Beethoven symphonies with sensuousness! At the same time, there's a kinetic energy to many of the movements which recalls the approach taken by Toscanini (as was pointed out when this set was first released - most notably by Harris Goldsmith in "High Fidelity" magazine). I also found that the sound of the BPO winds from this time had such superb character in their tone - a quality they lost during the Abbado era, where the sound of the orchestra became more bland and "international" sounding.
So far, I've heard them all, except for the Ninth, with Madeline (my wife) listening to some of the symphonies too. During our listening to the Fifth, Madeline felt that Karajan's tempo in the last movement was perhaps just a bit too moderate, although we both liked the performance in every other respect. So at that point I decided to check some other recordings of this movement that I happened to have handy. Here are our "shoot from the hip" impressions - remember this is the fourth movement only:
I remembered the Dorati/LSO performance on Mercury as being among the best I've heard. The tempo was enough faster than Karajan's to give Dorati's performance that extra zing and the LSO plays brilliantly. I was surprised however that the recorded sound was not as good as I had remembered it, with signs of distress in the upper frequencies which compared unfavorably with the refinement achieved on the Karajan set (although, even on Karajan's set, I occasionally felt that the high frequencies were the one area where something didn't sound quite right - as if there were tiny portions of the frequencies which sounded "foreign" and which didn't seem to originate from the instruments themselves - this is a VERY slight perception and in no way does it alter my general statement about the stunning overall quality of the remastering on Karajan's set). BTW, I just checked the booklet for the Dorati recording, and found the following: "Due to difficulties with the original [35mm] film master, this compact disc was made from the half inch tape [backup]." That might explain the degradation I'm hearing in the sound.
This performance is from Skrowaczewski's underrated complete set, and, conceptually, it has some similarities to the Karajan approach. Unfortunately, Skrowaczewski doesn't get as much help from his engineers, with a more amorphous, less defined sound picture emanating from the recording. In addition, the Saarbrucken strings sound thin compared to those in Karajan's early 60's BPO. So. . . too bad - this recording is conceptually excellent, but is let down by its string tone and its engineering.
This is another recording I remembered as being outstanding, but a re-listening to it seemed to uncover a few weaknesses I hadn't noticed before. First of all, Reiner whips up the tempo, and everything is going at a tremendous clip (e.g., faster than Dorati, who is already faster than Karajan). In a way, it's actually too fast for even the vaunted Chicago Symphony to articulate cleanly. Sometimes, when a performance is on the edge like this one is, it generates fantastic excitement - and certainly, there are many exciting moments here. But I feel we're still missing too much of the detail for this recording to be considered at the highest level. Part of the problem is also the sound - yes, I know it's part of the acclaimed Living Stereo series, but this 1959 recording is just too big and blowsy for my taste - RCA refined their recordings in Chicago over the years to get a more focused sound quality, much to their good IMHO, with recordings such as the 1962 Also sprach Zarathustra attaining an incredible realism. CAVEAT: for convenience, we listened to the regular domestic CD incarnation of this performance. I also have this recording on an XRCD, where the remastering might have been produced with much more care - we did not listen to the XRCD, which, I suspect, might have shown this performance in a better light.
This performance started out as if it would be a real competitor to the Karajan recording in every way: orchestral playing, sound quality, interpretive conception. . . But midway through the movement, Szell makes what I feel is a fatal mistake. At the end of the development section, Beethoven brings back the same transitional material he had used in the third movement - it's so dramatic and effective that one could say it was a stroke of genius. The trouble is that in many performances (including Szell's), the tempo of the last movement is taken a bit faster than that in the third movement. What most conductors do is to take a gear shift in tempo (downward) when the third movement material returns and then return to their main tempo when the fourth movement's main theme returns in the recapitulation - this is usually quite effective. Unfortunately, what Szell does is to start slowing down to his third movement tempo in the blazing half cadence which immediately precedes the return of the third movement thematic material. What a let down! Talk about letting the wind out of your sails. After that, the performance just doesn't recover, and, to add insult to injury, Szell also holds back on the orgy of C-major triads at the very end (instead of driving to the end as most conductors do) in his most over-controlling, schoolmarmish way. Ugh! And this performance had promised so much!
You've got to hand it to him: some of his tempos during his time with the Munich Philharmonic were slower than molasses in January, but, by the gods, Celibidache certainly made most of them work! We didn't have the Giulini / La Scala recording (on Sony) handy to compare, but I can't imagine any other conductor who would even approach Celibidache's glacial pace in this music. Recorded in concert (in very good sound BTW - at least IMHO, but I've also seen complaints about the SQ on these EMI/Warner albums), the performance does get a head of steam going and manages to be convincing by the end. I just can't see this performance being a first choice in this music however - it should function more as a supplement to other performances in its own "see what can also be done" category.
The Neumann/CzPO recording on Supraphon enshrines another moderate-tempo performance which is undone by its engineering. Microphones seem way too far back, and this distant approach undermines the orchestral articulation that's absolutely vital in this work. Around the time of this recording, I think Supraphon was experimenting with quad recording, and at one time, I thought that perhaps the excessive reverberation might be able to be tamed if one had access to a quad issue. I tried this idea once by getting Neumann's Supraphon Mahler 5th with the CzPO on a multi-channel SACD (remastered from the original quad tapes) from Japan. No luck - the SACD sounded pretty much exactly the same as the original LP and the initial CD (two-channel) reissue.
Another LSO performance with some interesting details - quite often one doesn't notice the piccolo until near the very end, but de Burgos brings this instrument to the fore (quite legitimately IMHO) earlier in the movement with ear opening results. Other than that, the performance could use a bit more accentuation and punch. Engineering-wise, it's another fairly distant recording, but with much more detail audible than on, say, Neumann's Supraphon recording. In general, this recording has a certain beauty (and, as I said, some original ideas about balance), but I think most listeners will feel that it's lacking in power. (BTW, there's another Collins Classics recording with de Burgos conducting - Stravinsky's Rite of Spring - that's out of this world in terms of power! It just goes to show that it's hard to predict how a given conductor/orchestra/engineering team will respond to a given work in a given recording session!)
This performance used to be available in the US during the LP era on the Epic label. Of all the different renditions we listened to, this one was the most wild and wooly, with an even faster main tempo than the Reiner/CSO recording. And in fact, in many ways, you feel as if you're riding by the seat of your pants as you listen to Markevitch's performance. Despite the breakneck speed, the conductor manages to find interesting details along the way, such as the subtle crescendos on the long notes of the main theme. And of course, in the Lamoureux Orchestra, we're dealing with an ensemble (and a period in time) where the tonal characteristics of French orchestral playing are front and center - especially in the winds with the vinegary oboes, the wheezy flutes, or the bassoons that sound like saxophones! They don't make performances like this these days! Madeline couldn't stand it, saying "The sound of the orchestra is so CRUDE!" I liked it a lot better, but, again, this is a "special study" performance rather than a consensus choice performance.
All in all, it was an odd assortment of performances we listened to (we could have listened to many more!), and when all was said and done, Madeline felt that none of the others was quite as good as the Karajan, despite her feeling that Herbie was "too moderate" with his last movement tempo. As for me, I was much more impressed by these Karajan performances than I remembered, and the blu-ray remastering was so well done that I'm now interested in acquiring the couple of blu-ray audio incarnations of Karajan's 70's cycle, of which I think only symphonies 7 and 9 are available.
Follow Ups:
Hi, I just love that Szell/Amsterdam with it's great sound. Does Szell do the same thing on his studio Cleveland record or his live VPO performance?
Although I like the Karajan recording you included here, there are soooo many recordings. And personally, I like the variety available to me. Since I am happy to accept the notion that there is no one best interpretation of any great music, I can enjoy the recordings by a diversity of conductors/orchestras -- from Bruno Walter to Zinman, Maazel's under the radar live performance with the VPO on tour in Japan to Mravinsky with the Leningrad forces, and others.
BTW, I don't experience the same difficulties you do with the Dorati, because I play the original LP cut from the 35MM tape, which sounds pretty darned good to my ears.
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
I am certainly open to a variety of approaches for most works - it's one of the means by which one can learn more about the music (i.e., by hearing it performed in different ways). I know there are other listeners though who feel that, at least for them, there's the one "definitive" (I hate that word!) recording above all others. ;-)
Regarding the Dorati/LSO Beethoven Fifth, that might indeed be a case where I would have to concede that the LP incarnation would be superior to the digital one - for exactly the reason stated (i.e., that the original 35mm master was too far gone/deteriorated to use as the basis for the CD). OTOH, my distant memory of the Dorati LP was that, although it was superb in so many areas, including the depth and "airiness", I thought that there were louder places that sounded over-modulated on the actual groove cut. Maybe it was just the inability of my cartidge at the time (late 60's) to cope.
A "definitive" recording is one which the composer has either conducted or approved of another conductor's work. The guy/gal that wrote the music should have the final say on what is "definitive". That means that there are no definitive recordings of anything from the classical and romantic periods because all of those composers were long gone before recordings were a reality. This is not the case for 20th century composers. For example, Stravinsky regarded many of Robert Craft's recordings of his music as "definitive". If Igor said so then it is so. But, the question remains, are they the "best" recordings. Of course that is a whole 'nother kettle of fish because "best" is thoroughly subjective.
I'm sure you and Mr. Vroon would hit it off! He also dislikes HIP in a big way, and he doesn't hold back on saying what he believes! :)
But you owe yourself the experience of hearing the last movement of Beethoven's Fifth from the new Harnoncourt Sony release. It is totally bonkers. Richard Osborne in Gramophone (2/16) discusses Harnoncourt's newfound discovery of the General Pause:
"In the final 13 bars Harnoncourt introduces a series of general pauses between some (but not all) of the C major chords, stopping Beethoven's peroration in its tracks. The effect is the kind of rhythmic disjunction we expect to hear [at] the end of Sibelius's Fifth, not Beethoven's."
And, of course, it's heavily HIP. But it's different and startling. :)
. . . based on my review of Angela Hewitt's Liszt album. I suppose he thought I was a sourpuss regarding Miss Prissy-Pants' performances, and, I have to admit, I probably WAS a sourpuss (but with good reason!). Anyway, via an exchange of comments, we got everything straightened out. I just don't feel as if I have my "You kids get off my lawn!" mojo up to the level that Mr. Vroon has his! ;-)
Re Harnoncourt's Beethoven 5th, I guess I'll have to wait until I'm back with a streaming service in order to hear it. From your description, I'd hardly pay money just to experience a performance that's as screwed up as your account of it suggests! ;-)
OTOH, I've been listening recently to the rest of NH's Bruckner symphonies (aside from the 5th and 9th, which I already had) via the recent Teldec "bundle":
I'd say that it's overall very good - Harnoncourt seems to behave himself more with Dvorak and Bruckner than he does with the music of earlier periods! But, come to think of it, I really like his in-concert Schumann and Schubert Fourth Symphonies recording with the BPO too - That Schubert performance even makes me tempted to get his big, expensive Schubert box with the BPO (all the symphonies plus the last two masses and even an opera thrown in too). He was a strange duck, no question about it.
Harnoncourt was an outstanding conductor. You may dislike some of his results, or the whole HIP philosophy, but he was one of the few who are able to bring their vision to life, not just a stick-waver looking for flashy special effects.
Just listened to the whole Harnoncourt Beethoven 5th. First I though I was listening to an arraingement for brass band. The brass play out so loudly that it is irritating to listen to. The pauses at the end. What was he thinking. It almost brings the work to a complete stop. This is to me one of the worst performances of this great work I have ever heard. I still love Kleiber. His performance over powers any doubts about the sonics. Don't you guys ever listen to old Toscanini or Furtwangler recordings? If I had a wire recording of Chopin playing the piano would you not listen because of the sonics?
Alan
Of course, this was the Karajan Beethoven cycle recorded before the Philharmonie was completed in 1963, most likely in the Jesus-Christus Kirche in Berlin. IMHO, the Philharmonie is not nearly as good a recording venue, and many of the tricks employed by Karajan's engineers were attempts to compensate.
There's a picture of the outside of the Jesus-Christus-Kirche in the booklet. Here's another, courtesy of Wikipedia:
I haven't looked into this myself, but the booklet suggests that most of the Karajan/BPO recordings for DG continued to be made at the Jesus-Christus-Kirche, even after the opening of the Philharmonie. The 70's Beethoven cycle may have been an exception (?).
(BTW, I just ordered the blu-ray audio incarnation of the 70's 9th yesterday - it will be interesting to compare it to the 60's recording.)
Thanks for that lovely picture. There is no question that the BPO has long used the Philharmonie as a recording venue, but I have no idea precisely what was recorded where. The Karajan/BPO orchestral recordings from the late 60s, 70s and 80s are generally not favorites of mine from the standpoint of sound quality.
N
Seriously though, this whole exercise was based on what was convenient to hear at the time - which means whatever I happened to have on iTunes. If we wanted to compare Kleiber for instance (a recording which I do have), I would have had to go to the trouble of getting up off the sofa and actually finding the disc on the shelf and putting it in the player. I'm getting too old for that kind of physical exertion! ;-)
(BTW, I think that the only Scherchen recordings I may have right now are his Bach Brandenburg Concertos - not his better known Westminster recording, but the one with the Cento Soli Orchestra of Paris (mp3 only unfortunately) - his Bach Mass in B minor, his Handel Messiah (Westminster, not Vanguard), and his disfigured Mahler Fifth with the ORTF on Harmonia Mundi. I used to have his Beethoven Eroica and Schumann Manfred too, but in general, I never collected too many recordings of "The Wizard of Gravesano".)
Karl Leister was Principal Clarinet then.
One of the greats, IMO.
He was the European Robert Marcellus ( Cleveland/Szell ) for me.
The solo flutist is likely the late Karlheinz Zöller, another legendary BPO wind player who was succeeded by James Galway, but returned a few years later after Galway clashed with Karajan and left in a huff, and finally retired in 1993.
The contrast between Zöller and Galway couldn't be greater, the one a pure orchestral player, the other born to be a soloist.
rub me the wrong way.
I've heard some of his Solo stuff on the radio, HATED it.
He goes sharp with every crescendo, has way too much vibrato,
and sounds like he is playing a tin whistle.
I'll bet he makes faces and moves around a lot , not unlike Richard Stolzman, to "Sell it"
to the Public.
End of rant.
including the sharp playing, especially "octave stretching" (i.e., getting sharper as you play higher) and "vibrato above the fundamental", which he uses in a way similar to Maria Callas. I'm not about to get into a debate his style of playing, especially since I suspect I'd end up agreeing with you for the most part, except to say that the old saw, "You can't argue with success" would seem to apply.
The greatest harm Galway has done is spawn imitators who try to adopt his style without his immense technical control and strength, with disastrous results. Also, I have heard his work in the BPO, and believe it or not, he is capable of toning things down considerably, playing in tune, blending with the orchestra, etc. He just stopped doing all that when he began his solo career.
likened it a ship with lots of people on the oars, it was OK if you like that sort of thing I recall him saying.
Interesting comments from you!
I certainly don't disagree.
I have to say that most Classical singers have no vibrato control at all.
Of course there are exceptions.
nt
Nobody is questioning his chops.
I just don't like the sound.
I guess you do?
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
/
Rodrigo - Concierto Pastoral, Fantasia Para Gentilhombre w/Mata/Philharmonia
Sonatas for Flute and Piano: Dvorak/Feld/Martinu w/Phillip Moll on piano
Sonatas for Flute and Piano:Prokofiev/Franck w/Martha Agerich
Concertos: Ibert/Poulenc/Chaminade/Faure w/Dutoit/Royal Phil.
Bach: Two Flute Concertos/Suite In B Minor w/I Soloisti Di Zagreb
Corigliano: Pied Piper Fantasy w/Eastman PhilharmoniaThat's what I have of his. Helluva tin whistle.
Edits: 08/04/16
Of course, the Rodrigo and Corigliano were written specifically for Galway and beautifully showcase what he can do. But either ya like that kind of flashy thing, or ya don't.
Funny about his Bach B minor suite -- in his memior, Nathan Milstein takes the trouble to criticize Galway's super-fast tempo, while acknowledging with grudging admiration that his concerts are always sold out.
It is actually a huge compliment that Milstein chooses to mention Galway at all in his cranky narrative, which is mostly about Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Rachmaninoff, Kreisler, Toscanini, Horowitz, Heifetz, Piatigorsky etc., all of whom he knew well, and all of whom he admired but doesn't hesitate to slam when he thinks they deserve it.
As a doubler who doesn't even qualify to carry Galway's flute case for him, I find his playing damn near perfect for the Rodrigo and Corigliano. So far, "flashy" or not, I haven't heard a piece by Rodrigo or Corigliano I don't enjoy. For ex: Corigliano's oboe concerto could certainly be called "flashy", but I enjoy it nevertheless, and am amazed anybody can play it.
Can't imagine listening to Galway play the sonatas I listed and hating his sound/pitch. I'm not expert enough to criticize tempos, nor expert enough regarding other mind blowing flutists to rank Galway. But if I could play like him I'd die happy.
I know he's performed/recorded a wide variety of music including some, ahh, "fluff". Don't know if the motivation is all about sales/money or he genuinely enjoys playing more "commercially viable" music. I don't hold it against him when I listen to him play pieces like the Prokofiev sonata.
I'm also a big fan of both the Rodrigo and the Corigliano pieces and Galway's great performances of them. Let's face it, even those who argue his style is too over the top for, say, certain baroque music have to concede that his technique is so spectacular he can pull it off. You should get the album that made him a star, Man With The Golden Flute. These are encore pieces, many written for the violin, and he is spectacular in all of them.
The Prokofiev/Franck record with Martha Argerich is earlier than that and is also a true classic.
nt
wonderful piece. Monster Oboe Part. All Parts had their challenges.
Nice Horn Overtone writing and nice Clarinet Duet in slow mvmnt.
Amazed? No, but Solid, yes.
I've played in Small Groups and Big bands most of my life, and Arrange and Compose too.
Not unlike someone here named Rick, tho I don't have several CDs of Original Music available...
One major highlight for me was touring with the SFS on Alto sax and Clarinet, playing the Berg Violin Concerto.
David Breeden was the Principal Clarinet.
His dad. Leon, started the Jazz Program at North Texas State.
I can write/play jazz, but never came close to developing enough chops to play orchestral music. I got a glimpse of what its like to shed enough to get those chops for only one 6 months period in my life.I shed 6 hours a day during that period (while I was at Berklee in the '60's), splitting the time up between alto/bari/soprano/flute/clar./bass clar. Gotta say, I felt my improvement was kinda jaw-dropping, especially on clarinet. But I couldn't keep it up, and that was the zenith of my clarinet playing.
Its been down hill since then, and if I attempted to play in the orchestras you play in I'd rightfully be shot - possibly by you.
BTW - a bunch of guys I know went to N. Texas and loved Breeden.
Edits: 08/05/16
judging from your fine CDs, you are first tier.
However, it's a full-time job to play orchestral or chamber music on the very highest level. I've heard some recitals by very good players who have made their careers mostly in music academia or administration. Hey, they're still classical music pros, and still do some performance gigs, but they are usually a very clear notch below the top full time orchestral or small ensemble players, and not for lack of talent or training.
Edit: There is little doubt you could play classical at the highest level if you decided to. I played with a jazz flute player in college named Andy Strasmich (know him?) -- like you a top jazzer, who wanted some classical orchestra experience, and could have been tops at classical too if he wanted.
Edits: 08/05/16 08/05/16
I'm a Hybrid Musician. I believe listening to and playing Jazz, both phrasing and Improv helped me be a better Classical Player, because I learned to really lay it in there.
But never been the best at either, but I'm happy to say I've played With many of the Best, in whatever Idiom.
But you are a Real Jazz Musician, and a fine Jazz Player is the equal of any fine Classical Player, Musically.
Then there are the actual Geniuses, whom we look at with Awe, and start looking for a shovel, because we realize it's all we are really qualified for.
I may have said too much.
Definitely.
Too Much.
Too.
Much.
Those f#*^ing geniuses ruined it.
What heard on the radio was light, like some Irish Tune, Pops oriented, but I've heard several things on the radio that were along those lines that I didn't care for.
If you heard them your ears might start tingling!
I see that you've heard him at his best, I trust your ears.
Galway sounds like he's playing a pan pipe, that watery kind of sound.
I heard Stolzman once trying to play the Copland. While he was selling his performance he got crossed up and missed a few notes. It was revealing and embarrassing at the same time.
I don't own any of those two's recordings.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
Ok, maybe you're Not my Baby...
At 76, probably not.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
I have it on SACD and LP. The set is quite variable, IMO, with strong performances of most of the symphonies, but with some major miscalculations in the first movement of the 6th, the second movement of the 8th, and the final movement of the 7th. The first two symphonies are also done in a "bigger band" way than we would likely hear today.
I also have the 70s performances on LP, which I need to pull down one day and listen to again, not having heard them in a long time.
OK, now for some controversy - not only is Karajan's 5th from this cycle one of its highlights, it is far better than the famous Carlos Kleiber VPO reading. (Do a head to head with the score in front of you, and see what you think - my very short review of the Kleiber would be muscular, generalized and externalized.)
In fact-every time I have compared Karajan and Kleiber head to head, Karajan comes out on top, and there are times when I believe that Kleiber was quite overrated, benefitting from his "cult" status.
nt
But a large part of that preference derives from the engineering. I just wish I could hear Kleiber sometime where I wasn't quite so aware of all the microphones being used. I used to have a laser disc of Kleiber and the Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra doing the 7th. At the time, I liked it better than the DG recording with the VPO. (I wonder what I would think now?) The recording quality on the big marquee Kleiber recordings (Brahms 4th too) is so distracting that I really don't know what to think about him.
BTW, I'm interested in what you see as the major miscalculations in the Karajan performances of the 6th, 7th, and 8th symphonies. Could you elaborate?
You should be able to find this under the title - my sa-cd.net username was tream. At that time I did not own the LPs. Having said that, I have yet to listen to them - picked up a set cheap about a year ago.
This shows that memory is an unfaithful friend....apparently I liked the fast tempo in the first movement of Pastorale better than I recalled. But, I have never liked the "traditional" slow to a dirge in the trio of the 7ths Scherzo - and I found the 4th movement overdriven, and then there is the ponderous tempo of the 3rd movement of the 8th.
Madeline commented on it too. The tempos you mentioned in the 6th and 7th didn't bother me - I felt Karajan pulled them off convincingly. For many years, I thought Karajan's Decca 7th with the VPO (from just a couple of years earlier than this DG set) was perhaps slightly fresher than this BPO one, but I need to hear them back to back.
I like your comment about Kmentt, the tenor in the 9th - he was really a "let the chips fall where they may" type of singer. ;-)
You can't judge the last movement of the Kleiber performance without listening to the whole symphony There is a forward momentum from the start culminating in the searing last movement. If you want a great performance with killer sound the new recording on Reference Recordings of Honeck and the Pittsburgh symphony is a great performance with reference quality sound
Alan
Edits: 08/03/16
And I never pretended to do so.
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