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In Reply to: RE: For me, Sergiu Celibidache is the only conductor to make it sound like religion and not performance posted by John Marks on July 25, 2016 at 17:07:58
I've gotten over it, perhaps being introduced as a tween-aged performer - in the 60s - to such ideas, for Church music, and by listening to Mozart, Schubert and Mendelssohn, done HIP.So, why can't you get over it?
For me real faith isn't about weight and seriousness alone, it's mostly and overwhelmingly about joy and freedom from guilt about the past, and getting on with making a difference.
So, vigour, complexity, moment to moment dynamics, timbral richness, and expression. And suddenly it feels like LIFE does, here and now.
Mary Magdalene in the Garden in John, moment to moment shifts of joy and yet deep sharp grief, pierced by joyous realisation.
But we've got to weep and grovel and moan, slowly, and turgidly!
NOT.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Edits: 07/27/16 07/27/16 07/27/16 07/27/16 07/27/16Follow Ups:
God seems to have formal preferences. In the earliest Mass ever recorded, God respected Abel's expression but rejected Cain's.And while there is no mention of musical tastes, might we infer that *heavy and solemn* is preferable to *light and fruity*?
Edits: 07/27/16
reverent doesn't have one possible style.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Is that supposed to be the sound of forbidden fruit hitting m' upside the head?Anyway, I'm not quite sure what your meaning is.
You know though, it could be that the expression of *meaning* or intent matters at least as much as "style" does in music designed for church service - or at least, it seems that *God* himself might have thought so way back when, back in Abel's day.
Edits: 07/27/16 07/27/16
In Christian tradition the "Lamb of God" is not something that is repeatedly killed off as a sacrifice for our sins, as it is in other Jewish traditions. Christians believe that the true "sacrificial lamb" (Christ) was killed but once, then raised from the dead to be taken back to heaven in triumphant manner.This story is said to represent the complete cycle of salvation, as intended by God the Father.
Therefore, once a (former) sinner has been redeemed or "saved" via God's sacrifice one might expect that he/she might do more than simply express feelings associated with the remembrance of a (former) sorrowful state and/or the willingness to repent. One might also expect an expression of JOY for the ability to MOVE FORWARD in life...
In reference to the "moving forward" part, one might think that the complete spectrum of human thoughts and emotions (not simply "serious" thoughts and emotions related to affirmation of belief, reflection, reverence, etc...) could possibly be considered as being appropriately *elemental* during the celebration of Mass.
John's point is well taken, though. I think that he is correct to insist that a feeling of unshakeable faith should *imbue* or permeate the proceedings.
But one never knows how many aspects of "the truth" are going to make it through the sieve of religious thought (or through the sieve of secular thought disguised as religious thought, for that matter).
Edits: 07/27/16 07/27/16
I'm still not clear on what John means by the musicians' imbuing the performance with a kind of religious awareness. How would the listener know that they have such awareness? Is it like porn - you know it when you see it? (Or, in the case of the Bach B-minor Mass, hear it?)
For me it's more an aesthetic awareness.
Jeremy
LOL! The religious feeling probably IS a bit like the porn feeling in that it would seem to be tied into deep-seated (no pun intended!) instincts, feelings, thoughts.So it is obvious that the vocal soloists MUST sound as if they are confident that the "truths" being sung about are... "true". I would imagine that the "religious feeling" probably has something to do with the way the vocalists emphasize or force certain words or phrases, the way they linger upon certain other words or phrases, etc...
Edits: 07/28/16
Another possibility -- more likely, I suspect -- is that the religious feeling arises from the listener. Who knows what the performers (or authors, for that matter) were really thinking and feeling. What matters is the thoughts and feelings they stimulate in me.
Then slow and reverent or light and fruity are there only if I perceive them to be there.
Jeremy
I think you have just described opera.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
The Soloists and especially the Cleveland Chorus *really* get into it. I can't believe this is the same choir which was so stiff in Maasel's Porgy.
Purists beware though: the producers proudly go on about the miles of multi mic cables along the floor.
Solemn as it gets, but all down hill from there lol.
. . . perhaps the greatest Mass ever written, but I'm not sure how religious (though I sometimes feel religious listening to it)-- just me, of course.
Jeremy
But of course. I guess.
.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
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