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In Reply to: RE: I DO NOT "tear" Through Wiki - Nor ANYTHING For My Information posted by Newey on May 03, 2016 at 09:46:44
that it's blessedly free of the Applebee's BBQ chicken pizza homogenized sound which you seem to prefer and which is unfortunately so popular these days.
And YouTube doesn't do them justice.
Follow Ups:
> > > My point about the OSR's sound is that it's blessedly free of the Applebee's BBQ chicken pizza homogenized sound < < <
Nope. That's not what you said. What you said is very clear, and it's posted down below, right in this thread for all to see. Just in case you try to weasel out of you statements, I'll paste them right here:
> > > The Suisse Romande pictured, with its locally constructed and quite astringent winds, diaphanous strings and colorful brass was as close to HIP as one could get back then < < <
And, just moments ago, again:
> > > I've said in the past that the OSR sounds delightfully HIP < < <
So, you're saying that the OSR were "the closest thing to HIP", except when you're shown to be wrong. Then, you try to spin out of that.
The fact that orchestras all used to sound different back then [and the homogenization process was first noticed in the mid 70s, afaik] is something YOU'RE COMPLETELY UNAWARE OF.
The OSR wasn't an exception. All orchestras sounded different. The Paris Conservatory Orchestra sounded even MORE like what you think the OSR sounds like. They were even MORE "piquent", and often really out of tune. Peculiar section balances, as if each section was independent and maybe hostile to the others.
So, even if we accept for second your silly contention that the OSR sounded "HIP", that'd make the PCO even MORE HIP.
EVEN MORE MORE MORE HIP
OMG - the mind boggles. And, why stop there. The Minneapolis SO had a highly individual, string-light sound. HIP - right there. Yuppers.
Oh - and the Russians. The Russians claimed for decades upon decades that they were the final carriers of authentic tradition. Just listen to those Soviet era recording. The horn and brass vibrato is out of this world. That's anti-HIP, EXCEPT acccording to you. YOU think it more HIP.
As I'd said below - anyone - ANYONE - may verify for themselves whether the OSR, the PCO [and other French orchestras], or any other ensemble, sounds HIP or doesn't. NOBODY NEEDS TO TAKE YOUR SPIN-JOB WORD FOR IT. Nor mine, for that matter.
You clearly think that any kind of peculiar, individualist sound is automatically HIP.
Creates a true straw man:
> > > Newey: the instruments themselves don't create vibrato < < <
As if I ever said anything of the sort. Nothing like making something up and then accusing someone of saying that.
I'm betting that in the little bit of real life that you have outside of here, the few people who know [knew] you regard you as a swindler and a con man.
Severius! Supremus Invictus
You have your fun revealing and demolishing. I've never met anyone who's minimized and perverted the wonderful gift of music more than you.
Desperately trying to spin your way out of the pool of really embarrassing statements you've made.
Psssst - they're all still here, for all to see.
Maybe you can get a moderator to delete them for you. Whew. Save face.
Severius! Supremus Invictus
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The posts are all still here.
Can't hide from them.
All of your words --- still here. DAMNING EVIDENCE.
Best run to that bar of yours, and seek solace in your own kind there.
Severius! Supremus Invictus
In fact, everyone who has ever heard Ansermet and the OSR does. Let's face it, you are using the acronym HIP just to get a rise out of Mr. Newey. Another way of making the point is that Ansermet was perhaps the last survivor of a breed of conductors who founded their own orchestras, had absolute control over a devoted band of players, and were able to create a unique sound. (Thomas Beecham was born rich and had something like that with the LPO and RPO. Back in the old days, Eduoard Colonne and Leopold Damrosch had that, and Walther Straram had it in the early 20th century thanks to his wealthy wife. Unfortunately, Straram had a great orchestra but was a bad conductor. Toscanini didn't quite have that with the NBC Symphony, in my opinion, since that was a radio orchestra made up of NY freelancers, not really a full-time concertizing orchestra.)
The economics of today makes it unlikely that a single conductor will create, own and control a top full time professional orchestra.
Your post gives us thoughtful, enlightening, and absorbing information. Why can't we have more of that, rather than the predatory pugnacity of your unfortunate colleague? Perhaps you should have a word with 'him'.
Fascinating information. Which orchestra did Walther Straram lead? I'm unfamiliar with him.
How would you regard Ormandy? Everyone said that he inherited the lush string sound of the PO from Stokowsky - do you think so?
Even if true, Ormandy managed to sustain it for 50 years or more - a couple of generations. So, that'd indicate that Ormandy certainly played a part in generating that famous PO sound. He didn't retire either, did he?
Severius! Supremus Invictus
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To bad you can't answer a SINGLE ONE of them.
In fact, I doubt you're even aware of any of these points, except dimly.
Severius! Supremus Invictus
A year ago I mentioned how refreshing I found Amsermet's Brahms, because of its HIP-like clarity and liveliness, and that was long before the darkness had fallen.But back then, one was allowed to venture beyond the Binary without upsetting the fanatics.
But seriously, the parallels should be obvious to anyone.
When I talk shop with fellow musicians and music lovers, I expect the context and caveats to be understood: Yes, Newey's heard that HIPsters don't use vibrato. That they play fast. That they're bass light. That they flub, etc.
**Of course** the OSR players use vibrato, of course they employ the modern standard number of string bases, (or at least newey's minimum standard, unless it's since been revised up to 10, now that he's looked at a pic of the Berliner bass section : ) and, well, Amsermet was usually pretty expedient.
It was just amusing to me that newey was singing the praises of one of the few ensembles that was unwittinglying HIP ( for reasons that you know and dont need to be told), even before the movement began.
Edits: 05/03/16
I've known about that for decades.
Accusing me of stupidity ["now that he's looked at a pic of the Berliner bass section"], it's not clear if you know that Herbert von Karajan's dead. In fact, he died years ago.
So, what picture, butt-kissing boy? Today's BPO picture? How many basses do they use now? How about 10 years ago? How many then? Do you know?
If I looked at a picture, or cribbed from Wikipedia, which I never do cause I don't have to, but which you ALWAYS DO, because you DON'T KNOW ANYTHING, then tell me - and anyone else reading this -
WHY DID KARAJAN USE 10 BASSES?
HUH? WHY? WHY?
Why did he use 10 basses? Come on. It's in that picture of yours, isn't it?
What a sorry, lonely sap you really are.
Severius! Supremus Invictus
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Quick. Look it up on Wikipedia. Search on line. DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT.
Yeah. You don't know.
You don't know ANYTHING about music. I may know only a tiny, teenie bit. But, you don't know squat. Back to the *** bars for you.
Severius! Supremus Invictus
solely to prove he's not HIP. Musicians don't think like that.
Yeah. You told me.
Cause, like, I didn't KNOW that. Ooooo. Thanks, Jiminy. You've just so informed me. Do we breath air here on earth? Tell me that too, cause I just don't know.
Give me a break, spin-liar boy. I know ALL of that shit, way more than you ever will.
So, tell me. TELL EVERYONE. WHY DID KARAJAN USE 10 BASES IN THE BPO???????
In any piece. WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY
Severius! Supremus Invictus
What was she making?
Conductors size their orchestras based upon the music at hand, or the exigencies of the venue,and without that info, I can't tell you what karajan was aiming for.
You don't know.
And, you've just said that orchestral sonority is " not a worthy question as is. It's like asking why Martha Stewart used 10 eggs".
Nice shot, genius.
As I've stated in my post above, 8 or 9 basses are AUDIBLY different than 4 or 5. EXCEPT TO YOU.
"Conductors size their orchestras based upon the music at hand"
Such as who???
The question was SPECIFICALLY ABOUT KARAJAN. He used 10 basses. It wasn't for a joke. It wasn't for Martha Stewart". Why did he do that?
"or the exigencies of the venue,and without that info, I can't tell you what karajan was aiming for"
The BPO played in it's home concert hall. They recorded there, too, and afaik, stayed with 10 basses for recordings, too.
You can't tell - cause you HAVE NO FRIGGIN IDEA
Severius! Supremus Invictus
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> > > When I talk shop with fellow musicians and music lovers < < <
Hawr Hawr
Weren't you spewing sarcastic contempt for everyone here not too long ago?
I'm going to actually look up those posts and link and repost them.
Last week you were kissing up to the rock and rollers with your classical composers are "DEAD WHITE GUYS".
Now, you're shamelessly - SHAMELESSLY - making a bid for group sentiment [or, at least the few - if any - who're still reading this predatory thread of yours - with that "fellow musicians and music lovers". Hawr Hawr.
At least I'm honest and straightforward. I don't conceal any contempt I may have.
Signing off with a 'rock on' wouldn't be correct here. In your case it's SPIN ON, you natural born liar, you.
Severius! Supremus Invictus
You just keep lying, spinning, putting words in my mouth ----
You're doing do much that I'm beggining to think you may be on drugs or a nervous breakdown yourself.
Let me add to your mental state. Hmm, I think I'll put words into your mouth - Jiminy style. Should be fun. Let's see:
You Said That Ansermet Was A Nazi Homosexual, and that he got the OSR to sound that way because he was promoting communist mind control.
Nah. No good. I just don't have the gift for BS the way you do.
Severius! Supremus Invictus
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f
Severius! Supremus Invictus
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> > > now that he's looked at a pic of the Berliner bass section < < <
Look at him spin. Look at him fabricate. Look at him falsely attribute and accuse. I should sue this punk for libel.
In fact, I know about Karajan's 10 basses from an old interview he did.
What I don't know is whether they even still have 10 basses. For all I know, they may only use 4 or 5 or 6 these days.
But, that doesn't stop JDaniels from accusing me and lying out his alternative ass.
Severius! Supremus Invictus
For you, I've got some very special treats in store.
Severius! Supremus Invictus
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