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In Reply to: RE: OMG - Look At That Drop Dead Gorgeous Non-HIP Orchestra posted by Newey on May 02, 2016 at 19:43:40
constructed and quite astringent winds, diaphanous strings and colorful brass was as close to HIP as one could get back then when it comes to producing a wonderfully heterogeneous sound, now lost forever. (I've heard the current Suisse Romande live under Dutoit and they don't sound the same.) Because you've never played in an ensemble, you don't realize that when it comes to projection, numbers don't count as much as the construction of instruments and size of hall. Although 8 basses vs 6 may look visually exciting to you, the actual increase in volume may very well be negligible.
.I've said over and over again to you newey: put sound before liner notes, your narrative, (or Wikipedia ) and you'll stop making such a fool of yourself.
Norrington's ensemble for Beethoven's 9th. I'm counting at least 6 basses. (Top right.)
Edits: 05/02/16 05/03/16 05/03/16 05/03/16Follow Ups:
But - you didn't hear that, nor detect it. TONE DEAF.
The OSR winds, horns, used vibrato. That's the opposite of HIPs, unless you're simple. One dimensional - simple.
The sonority of the OSR was quite complex - as is the case with any orchestra - and the product of a confluence of playing styles - also UNHIP - the instruments used - the use and non-use of vibrato by the winds and horns, etc. etc. etc.
None of it made them sound like an HIP ensemble.
Unless, of course, you're a simpleton. Somebody tells you that the OSR are "astringent", and hey - according to you, "the strings, the winds, and the brass" are all astringent. Which, simplemindedly, equals HIPs.
Hell, even HIP bands don't sound alike. But, again, if your not musically talented, and your running a simple brain [I'm guessing double digit IQ somewhere in the 70s], then, hyup:
OSR = astringent = HIP
Yuppers.
The OSR brass did NOT sound astringent. The use of french model instruments and playing techniques gave them a bright sound that had a sonorous ring to it.
But again - if you're simple - it's all the same to you. It's alllllll good, right homey? Maybe you should stay away from this DEAD WHITE GUY stuff for which you have contempt, and stay with your dead black guy and his 3 "sophisticated" 3 chords.
Rock on, Champ. Rock on.
Severius! Supremus Invictus
at ease and defensive as you.
Instead of frantically tearing through wiki pages at 4 in the morning, why not just listen to one of their old performances?
Jeez. EVERYONE knows that the Suisse Romande sounded that way. It comes through on all of those [well made] London/Decca recordings.
However, if you think that, despite their peculiar sound, and their often out of tune winds, that that made them " as close to HIP as one could get back then", you're not just full of s**t, you are s**t, and tone deaf to boot.
ANYONE - even you, Jiminy - may test that out for themselves. Plently of old Ansermet/OSR recordings around. Lots and lots. Such as the ones the author of this thread's just gotten.
All anyone [even tone deaf mofo's] has to do is PLAY one of them - and compare it to some HIP group. ONE on ONE COMPARISON.
Result? THERE IS NO COMPARISON.
Even with all of their perculiarities and problems, the OSR doesn't - REPEAT - DOES NOT - sound like sound vibrato-free HIP-squeek group.
UNLESS------------- YOU'RE TONE DEAF.
Where does that leave YOU??? Ha Ha Ha - waving your arms, screaming -----
"I'M TONE DEAF AND I CAN'T TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE OSR AND HIPS"
Nice going, Jiminy.
Oh, and there were PLENTY of scrawny sounding orchestras back then. Just one example of many is the Viennese orchestra that Scherchen used. But, I'd guess that to a DEAF BOY, they were "as close to HIP as one could get back then" too. Ha Ha Ha. Everyone was HIP back then. Weeeeeeeeeee.
Severius! Supremus Invictus
I'm not a particular follower of Freud, but his theories sometime seem to prove to be true.
Look at your little slip here, Yiminy:
"...quite astringent sounding winds, strings and brass was as close to HIP as one could get...".
So, you, crusading defender of HIPs secretly think that HIPS are 'quite astringent', and therefore deficient, and therefore purposely inferior.
INFERIOR. JDaniels SECRETLY THINKS HIPs ARE INFERIOR
Talk about 'stepping in a pile'.
Boy, you've been covering yourself with glory lately. From revealing ignorance of literature, to revealing ignorance of contemporary trends, to revealing A HATRED FOR CLASSICAL MUSIC as the product of "DEAD WHITE GUYS" [your VERY words], to shameless public BUTT KISSING -----
wooof, Jiminy. I can't keep up. Is it the spring weather that's got you actin' up a fool, homie?
QUICK - hurry and give me another sight reading test so that you can try to quickly recoup some self respect. HURRY!!!!
Severius! Supremus Invictus
I'm there must be some. So, which ones?
I'm betting probably ----- none. But, who knows. Enlighten me. Enlighten us all.
Even if there are one or two, most of them use 3 to 4 max. They hate basses, and strings. Probably that, together with non-vibrato, has a partially TONE DEAF, mostly dim and imperceptive and inexperienced listener such as you confused and confusing the OSR [or the Vienna Opera Symphony Orchestra or the Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra or --- well, the list goes on and on] with some squeaky HIPS.
BUT - those EIGHT [8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 8 EIGHT] basses make a difference - if you;re not tone deaf. The foundation of their sound is all different from some 3-bass HIPs. I hear it. Lot's of folks HEAR IT.
Except ---------> YOU
YOU DON'T HEAR IT. You can't tell the difference. Poor Yiminy.
Yet ANOTHER EMBARRASSING public moment for JDaniels. One in a long series, stretching back too ---------
Severius! Supremus Invictus
visually more exciting to concert goers such as yourself....
Edits: 05/03/16
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