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In Reply to: RE: A discussion of "German" vs "American/Modern" Brass Sound posted by Utley1 on April 24, 2016 at 08:10:29
Could you elaborate on the weakness of the NYPO strings? That's all I used read in the press back in the day.
But, as I listen to the Bernstein/NYPO Symphonies Box, so far all I've heard is an superb, confident, rich string section.
Severius! Supremus Invictus
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Newey: First, I have not heard the NYPO outside of Geffen Hall (which will close in a few weeks for about two years.) expect in several outdoor concerts. Friends have actually heard them play in Tanglewood(outdoors) and felt as I did. But as for the Columbia recordings that you own. I had stack of Bernstein performances, on that record label and he entire sound on those LP's is very restricted, as much as their orchestral recording was. their epic label always sounded much better. My point being: the sound stinks with little reverb depth or the ability to place sections. What you are hearing is not what I am hearing on my records. I can specifically recall the Mahler 2 and 3, the latter of which i think is one of the great Mahler 3's in the catalogue.I played these records on electrostatics or planers.
Now for the live stuff, all at Lincoln Center. I do not trust my memory of the Bernstein performances live. But from Boulez on I felt there is "hard flat, hardly robust, but loud and harsh as the volume increases. The cellos which is supposed to be the foundation of the section never achieves that sweeping, ocean like bellow vibrato sound(coming from the belly that might hear from Cleveland, BPO VPO etc.The viols and violins are segmented on top of cellos and basses, sound like a poor mid range on and inexpensive hi-fi. No bloom. I heard a Mahler 8 with Maazel,and he had the orchestra in balance with the huge chorus. A full evening of German romantic music can be grating.I have listened in all sections of the hall and the sound softens little. It is and has always been since Bernstein an unhappy orchestra.Again I do not know how you can make a judgement even from the remaster Sony Bernstein recordings, as the limitations remain. Maybe the Hall has forced the strings to play in an unnatural way.(By the way there has been a major turnover in that section with Julliard infusion but it is still the same to my ears. (As you know Hall and orchestra has been measured a million time and the conclusion-REBUILD THE HALL.
Whose Epic label (recordings)? Did you mean the Cleveland Orchestra, rather than the NYPO? (BTW, as you may know, I very much agree if you're talking about the Cleveland Orchestra, but AFAIK, the NYPO never recorded for Epic.)
Just meant that Epic was owned by Columbia. NYPO never recorded on that label . But there were studio recordings in the old City Center which did sound better, gthan Geffen Hall.. To me Cleve. was one of the great orchestra ever with or without Szell. Love their sound and to me preferable to even the great European orchestras of the 1960's and 70's. ASn open and creative group .
There were Berstein performances recorded at City Center, which sound better, but are still dumbed down by the Columbia engineers. The engineers also screwed up a lot of Miles Davis,, other jazz and the Marloboro festival performances. a great loss.
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