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In Reply to: RE: Beethoven: Symphony #1 - Part 4 of 5 - Masters and Anti-Masters posted by Newey on April 21, 2016 at 13:12:58
Hi Newey - I would like, as a professional brass player, to make a comment on something you posted, to clear up a misunderstanding that many audiophiles still have.
You wrote: "Toscanini gives the trumpet a touch of emphasis in the development climax [which Furtwangler doesn't do] giving it more urgency; very nice."
What you are writing of here has absolutely nothing to to with either Toscanini or Furtwangler. Too many people still attribute WAY too much of what they hear to the influence of the conductor, and not the musicians themselves. What you are hearing here is simply the difference between not only the trumpet players in question, but the actual instruments they are using. In Vienna, they use to this day simpler, rotary valve trumpets, that have a much warmer and darker tone than most more modern instruments (same with the horns, by the way). The American players in the NBC Symphony, on the other hand, are using much brighter instruments - hence the difference you hear, which you do perceive correctly - you have merely attributed it to the conductor instead of to the players. Neither set of players is playing any louder than the other here - what you are hearing is the difference in the timbre of their trumpets, and their own personal sounds - which conductors almost NEVER mess with in any significant way, particularly in orchestras of that caliber. It is quite possible that neither conductor ever said a word to the trumpet section in the making of these recordings - the trumpets have just about the easiest parts in that particular symphony, and both those orchestras know how to play Beethoven, it is needless to say.
Follow Ups:
Ah, so the Viennese are *semi-HIP*?
N
It is so significant that it has made the VPO,sound notable and distinct from other fine orchestra's and the Heckel style instrument has such a warm sound.
From Trombone Forum
One thing that I want to point out about the discussion linked here is the fact that the German made trombones were only in common use here in the US up until about 1950. That was over sixty years ago! However, it is true, as they say on there, that American brass players in general were heavily influenced back then by German playing styles - many of the great players and teachers that came over to the US in the 20s through the 40s were German, and American brass playing grew out of their styles. Both of my major teachers came from schools of playing that were originally German or Austrian, though their teachers were born in the US.
To answer the question below, yes, players choose their own instruments. Sometimes a section will choose to all play the exact same make of instrument, sometimes not. At one point, my section did for a few years, but mostly it has not. There are four of us in our horn section at the moment, with one open position, and only two of us play the same make of horn. The days of it being mandatory to play the same type of horn as the rest of the section are almost completely over in the US. This is one reason why regional styles are dying out, and brass sections are sounding more and more the same everywhere. It is much harder to tell different sections apart now than it was fifty years ago, that's for sure!
Thank you so much for sending me this link. Fascinating and provocative. I will now have to look at every trombone each time I go to a concert. Do orchestra members have a choice in cho0sing their instrument in each brass section?
Don't bother too much with scrutinizing the trombones. Likely, they'll all be Edwards. Only Dinosaurs like some of the NYPO and Chicago players still use the once ubiquitous Conn 88H or Bach 36s and 42s. Now that UMI owns, like the Politburo, all the means of production, the resultant shoddy workmanship has bred a few small custom manufacturers, dominated by the Edwards Co.
Appreciative. It is still intriguing to identify the 'brass sound' of a specific orchestra. NYPO has many deficiencies ,(mainly the strings,never thought it was just the hall.) but the brass section has always been its strength, at least to me. You offered a reason that makes sense. Thanks again.
Could you elaborate on the weakness of the NYPO strings? That's all I used read in the press back in the day.
But, as I listen to the Bernstein/NYPO Symphonies Box, so far all I've heard is an superb, confident, rich string section.
Severius! Supremus Invictus
Newey: First, I have not heard the NYPO outside of Geffen Hall (which will close in a few weeks for about two years.) expect in several outdoor concerts. Friends have actually heard them play in Tanglewood(outdoors) and felt as I did. But as for the Columbia recordings that you own. I had stack of Bernstein performances, on that record label and he entire sound on those LP's is very restricted, as much as their orchestral recording was. their epic label always sounded much better. My point being: the sound stinks with little reverb depth or the ability to place sections. What you are hearing is not what I am hearing on my records. I can specifically recall the Mahler 2 and 3, the latter of which i think is one of the great Mahler 3's in the catalogue.I played these records on electrostatics or planers.
Now for the live stuff, all at Lincoln Center. I do not trust my memory of the Bernstein performances live. But from Boulez on I felt there is "hard flat, hardly robust, but loud and harsh as the volume increases. The cellos which is supposed to be the foundation of the section never achieves that sweeping, ocean like bellow vibrato sound(coming from the belly that might hear from Cleveland, BPO VPO etc.The viols and violins are segmented on top of cellos and basses, sound like a poor mid range on and inexpensive hi-fi. No bloom. I heard a Mahler 8 with Maazel,and he had the orchestra in balance with the huge chorus. A full evening of German romantic music can be grating.I have listened in all sections of the hall and the sound softens little. It is and has always been since Bernstein an unhappy orchestra.Again I do not know how you can make a judgement even from the remaster Sony Bernstein recordings, as the limitations remain. Maybe the Hall has forced the strings to play in an unnatural way.(By the way there has been a major turnover in that section with Julliard infusion but it is still the same to my ears. (As you know Hall and orchestra has been measured a million time and the conclusion-REBUILD THE HALL.
Whose Epic label (recordings)? Did you mean the Cleveland Orchestra, rather than the NYPO? (BTW, as you may know, I very much agree if you're talking about the Cleveland Orchestra, but AFAIK, the NYPO never recorded for Epic.)
Just meant that Epic was owned by Columbia. NYPO never recorded on that label . But there were studio recordings in the old City Center which did sound better, gthan Geffen Hall.. To me Cleve. was one of the great orchestra ever with or without Szell. Love their sound and to me preferable to even the great European orchestras of the 1960's and 70's. ASn open and creative group .
There were Berstein performances recorded at City Center, which sound better, but are still dumbed down by the Columbia engineers. The engineers also screwed up a lot of Miles Davis,, other jazz and the Marloboro festival performances. a great loss.
g
Severius! Supremus Invictus
LOL!
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
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