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In Reply to: RE: Huh? posted by learsfool on August 18, 2015 at 16:25:31
I still think you and Roy are giving Stravinsky far too much credit.
I don't think Prokofiev resented the success of Stravinsky so much: in fact, Prokofiev was doing well enough as a pianist, but wanted to devote more time to composing. I think this is what he resented (i.e., having to devote too much of his time to pianism rather than to composing) - not Stravinsky. I'll certainly be happy to concede the point however if you have evidence that he resented Stravinsky.
Yes, he was not pleasant to be around socially, but I don't believe there's any documentation that he was bitter. You say that after he returned to Russia, he tried to remove as much of Stravinsky's influence as possible, but you never established that that influence was present in the first place. After all, Prokofiev's Toccata was written in 1912, as were a number of his rhythmically propulsive compositions (Sarcasms, Second Piano Sonata). Stravinsky's Rite of Spring wasn't performed until 1913, so who's influencing whom?
As for octave displacements, you yourself point to the serialists as big practitioners of that technique. Why does Stravinsky get the credit for inventing this technique? As I see it, it was just part of the Zeitgeist
Yes, I agree that there is some lyrical writing in some of Stravinsky's early works - but I don't agree at all that it's the same kind of lyricism you find in Prokofiev.
I guess it's just a YMMV kind of thing?
Follow Ups:
Hi Chris - again, I don't think you and I are really in disagreement here. I never said that Stravinsky should be given total credit for octave displacement, and I made it clear that Prokofiev's lyricism was quite different from Stravinsky's. These guys of course did not just imitate each other, but that doesn't mean that there was no influence at all. Again, my post was in response to the original poster, who did seem to deny that there was any influence at all on Prokofiev from Stravinsky, which I think most musicians would agree is absurd on the face of it. As the person considered the greatest living composer for decades, how could ANY composer NOT have been influenced by Stravinsky? This is all I was driving at, and I gave a few very obvious examples. This would not even be considered up for debate, among musicians. Of course, Stravinsky was also influenced by Prokofiev, again a fact that would not be in debate. The two men, after all, were constantly being compared to each other, especially in Russia.
As for the resentment on Prokofiev's part, that is something mentioned in every course I took on 20th century music, and have read in every bio I have ever read on either composer. I had a double major in theory during my undergraduate, and "specialized," if you will, in Stravinsky, so perhaps I have read quite a bit more than the average musician has on him in particular, but I am nevertheless very surprised that you apparently haven't encountered that before! Prokofiev is certainly one of the ultimate "i've got a chip on my shoulder" composers - not just about Stravinsky, of course, but in general. A big part of it was what you mentioned about having to perform too much, giving him less time than he wanted to devote to composition. He felt very under appreciated, much like Bartok did later in the century, though in Bartok's case, the resentment was directed more at Shostakovitch, witness especially his hilarious parody of the Shostakovitch's Seventh Symphony in the Concerto for Orchestra.
And just for fun, I came across a great Stravinsky quote on Facebook this morning:
"The trouble with music appreciation in general is that people are taught to have too much respect for music; they should be taught to love it instead."
Actually, I still think that Prokofiev's music is insufficiently appreciated in comparison to Stravinsky's or (ugh!) Shostakovitch's. So maybe I'M the one who's bitter! LOL!
BTW, I had read that Stravinsky was worried that, at least for awhile, his spot as the foremost modernist composer might be rivaled by another Igor. . . Igor Markevitch! Strange how things turn out sometimes.
Hi Chris - I remember coming across that as well, back when I was in undergrad and had never yet encountered anything by Markevitch, LOL!
I wouldn't say that Prokofiev's music is under appreciated, at all, especially among musicians, though I suppose you are referring to the general concert going public in this case. I would guess that there is currently more Prokofiev programmed than Stravinsky these days, if only because of the piano concerti. Romeo and Juliet is also probably quite a bit more performed than even the Rite.
The piece of Prokofiev's that I try to recommend to people is his ballet Cinderella. Fantastic music.
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