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In Reply to: RE: The artificial lack of vibrato is instantly recognizeable in HIP performances posted by learsfool on February 23, 2015 at 21:17:07
If you argue otherwise (McGegan or otherwise), you ARE being absurd. As you say, people can judge for themselves. I just wish they were free to judge without musicologists and misinformed critics telling them HOW to judge.
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Hmm. I think perhaps I should clarify that I am referring to the amount of vibrato a modern string section will use either in the opera pit, or when accompanying a singer onstage. In this instance, they will use nowhere near the amount of vibrato the soloist does, or that they would use if they were the soloists themselves, or even if playing a symphonic work where a wider vibrato was called for, say Russian romantic symphony of Tchaikovsky or Rachmaninov, for instance. They would certainly never copy the width of the singer's vibrato while accompanying, in any case. That would indeed sound absurd....
I don't care whether it's in the opera pit, accompanying a soloist, or playing a symphonic work - there's a level of vibrato that they (the strings in a modern orchestra) use that's instantly recognizable as qualitatively and quantitatively different from that of a HIP orchestra. And, yes, the amount the modern orchestra uses is more like the amount that singers with modest vibratos use (Elly Ameling, Edith Mathis, Ruth Ziesak, Margaret Marshall (short career), Barbara Bonney (early and mid career), Barbara Hendricks (early and mid career), et al). You can't seriously be arguing that just because the modern orchestra doesn't use as wide a vibrato as SOME singers that modern orchestras and HIP orchestras are equivalent in their use of vibrato, can you? I'm not getting your point otherwise.
I was merely responding to your comment that original instrument groups do not imitate a singer's vibrato when accompanying them - neither do modern orchestral string sections en masse. Yes, they are using some, and sometimes more than an early music group would; but they are NOT using the same amount a vocal soloist would - when they are accompanying them - , nor are they using it in an imitative way. In other words, your particular comparison is not really valid.
A much better comparison for your argument would be the wind section, whose vibrato is produced in a much more similar fashion (almost exactly the same, in some cases) to a singer. Interestingly, there is much LESS vibrato used by wind players in most parts of the world now than there was back in the 18th century, even among the woodwind instruments, which generally use much more than the brass do, particularly the flute, mostly because it is easier to do on that instrument, which does not have the resistance all the other wind instruments do.
Of course you're right that it would be impossible (or almost impossible) to match a given singer's vibrato precisely - an individual singer's vibrato is one of the things that personalizes the voice and makes an individual singer's voice unique, and it would be absurd (there's that word again!) for the orchestra to try to match, say, each of the four soloists in Beethoven's Ninth. BUT IN GENERAL, the string sound of a modern orchestra is, IMHO, FAR more of a match for the singing voice than the string sound of a HIP orchestra is.
And think of what Sulzer's treatise suggests: that the singing voice should be the ideal to which the instrumentalists should aspire. You just can't be serious if you think HIP strings match the singing voice better than modern (i.e., non-HIP-influenced) strings do. (Do you really think that?) And BTW, it's not a question of modern vs. period instruments. Conductors such as Snorrington and Gardiner have shown that they can suck the life out of a piece of music through rationed vibrato with a modern orchestra just as effectively as they can with a HIP orchestra. That's one area where I have to credit Harnoncourt (despite all the HIP damage HE'S done!): when he conducts Dvorak with the Concertgebouw, Bruckner with the VPO, or Johann Strauss with the BPO, he at least leaves the strings alone!
Hi Chris - we are actually in agreement then on the accompanying question, as I suspected, and that's what I thought your post was referring to before.
Again, I don't think in general that string vibrato works much like vocal vibrato, nor does it sound like it. They are two different animals. Wind instrument vibrato is the much closer comparison. Wind players can, even though most don't, use a vibrato as wide as an Italian opera singers in some cases and still sound fine. String sections really cannot do this, as it doesn't sound the same. Orchestral string sections today in the 21st century for this reason do not in general use as much vibrato as orchestras of the mid-20th century did (one major reason why I think audiophiles who grew up listening to those recordings do not like modern orchestras as much). Soloists and chamber musicians are a different story. If a string section uses a vibrato too wide, it just doesn't sound in tune - too many people having to match - much easier to keep the width of it smaller, resulting in a better overall tone and blend throughout the whole string section.
And by the way, I did not suggest that HIP strings match singers vibrato - my point was in fact the opposite, that the modern string players do not match vocal vibrato either. String vibrato vs. vocal vibrato is an apple/orange comparison - two different animals.
I agree with you, by the way, on Snorrington, but not on Gardiner, who IMO is one of the best interpreters of baroque and classical era music out there, HIP or not, from a purely musical standpoint. Impeccable phrasing, with a great sense of line and drama - he is much more about pure music-making, as opposed to just creating showy but ultimately shallow effects. Listening to his Beethoven cycle vs. Snorrington's are two extremely different animals, indeed - for me Snorrington has no real soul.
Many music lovers who like HIP do not read musicologists and critics.
They just like the sound and style.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
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