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Richard Morrison (Music columnist of The Times) raised this topic in the October issue of BBC Music magazine.
He comments that Wagner is a pretty certain nomination because he is both loathed and loved. Others he mention are Chopin, with adoring fans but others plain bored with his music and Berlioz who inspires markedly different reactions from people.
Not sure who I would nominate although Boulez would be high on the list. He is a great conductor but I really do not like his compositions.
The link below shows some surprising names nominated as being over rated. I would not nominate any of those listed.
Ruth Mariners discusses Brahms as a marmite composer here: http://bachtrack.com/22/296/view/512
Who would be on your list?
John
Enjoying 12,000 mostly classical CDs via Sennheiser HD800 headphones & M2TECH Vaughan DAC -> HeadRoom BlockHead headphone amplifier fed from a Meridian (Sooloos) server system.
The main 7.1 MC electrostatic speaker system is for A/V at night.
Follow Ups:
but mine are Chaikowsky and Brahms. Chaik cordially hated Brahms, Viz.
"What a giftless bastard!"
and, the love it or hate it part depends on the performances at live concerts, live broadcasts or rebroadcasts, or on recordings. With the latter Brahms oftens seem to not survive the process of being perfected by the producer.
Until I heard Gardiner's 'Ein Deutsches Requiem' I wouldn't have bought a recording of it.
Down here as John will know we have been enjoying replays of this years Prom's Concerts. Marvellous.
Chaik's the same IMO. That wonderful set with Bonynge conducting his ballet scores was a good example. A theatrical conductor for this most theatrical composer.
Warmest
Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
You got this completely wrong to start with. Marmite is either loved or hated, not overrated. Very big difference.
These kinds of things are always a waste of time. People make impassioned or obstinate arguments that do nothing whatsoever to inform or persuade others. I hate fucking Mozart. Well, you're just stupid then. Wagner is overblown and vapid. Gee, guess I'll quit listening if you really think so. This amounts to self-pleasuring one's ego via the internet.
Two friends of mine saw the Emperor concerto in concert and both thought it was awful music. At first, I mercilessly ridiculed them for being shallow and juvenile, but it did not change their tiny minds one bit. Now I just feel sorry for them.
I hate these kinds of threads, but, judging by the number of serious responses, many others enjoy them. So, Marmite it is.
Peace,
Tom E
And I've never seen the reason for ranking composers as if they were college football teams. If something is interesting and worth listening to for any reason, imo that's all that matters.
Most of the composers mentioned are not really Marmites. Hating a composer that most people like or thinking a composer is over rated doesn't make him a Marmite. If that were what a Marmite is, every composer would be one, because there are always going to be some who hate their music. In the case of most of the composers mentioned, a wide range of degrees of like or dislike are possible. Is Beethoven a Marmite? No way. Some may hate his music, but the majority love it and a lot of people have varying degrees of affection for it. It is possible to love it, hate it, and everything in between. It is not a love it or hate it proposition. Wagner is the perfect example of a Marmite, because most people either love or hate his music, with few in the middle. Shostakovich and Mahler are probably other good examples. But there aren't too many others.
There are many composers listed whose music I truly love but other posts remind me of further dislikes.
I hate Ravel for composing Bolero but love his other works.
Bottom line is we are truly blessed with a huge variety of music to choose from and more (often of questionable enjoyment) is added each year. And of course it has never been easier to listen to it anywhere on portables and in particular with high quality and satisfying reproduction in the home.
Enjoying 12,000 mostly classical CDs via Sennheiser HD800 headphones & M2TECH Vaughan DAC -> HeadRoom BlockHead headphone amplifier fed from a Meridian (Sooloos) server system.
The main 7.1 MC electrostatic speaker system is for A/V at night.
1. Anything pre-Beethoven (with the exception of the Bach solo cello and solo violin music)
2. All modernists (with very few individual pieces excepted)
It's a vast sea of Marmite. Thankfully, there are hundreds of composers that I do enjoy, including many I have not yet discovered.
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
In fact, I'll modify mine:
1. Anything pre-Beethoven
2. Anything post-Beethoven
3. Beethoven
Old joke: Fritz Reiner was giving an orchestra member a fierce dressing down at rehearsal, shouting "What's wrong with you?"
To which the musician responded: "The problem is, maestro -- all my life, I've hated music!"
It's unfortunate that you dislike classical music so much. hahaha
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
I almost picked Gliere, Miaskovsky and Taneyev as most overrated. ;) But composers and artists generally are not college football teams, ratings or rankings are meaningless. What matters is whether there is something, anything, worth hearing, not how it stacks up against Beethoven's 9th.
I like the music of Myaskovsky, Taneyev and Gliere. Also Bortkiewicz, Martucci, Attenburg, Tubin, Foerster, Dohnanyi and many many others.
Messiaen and Vivaldi, not so much.
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
that, like the rest of us, composers have their good days and their bad? I mean, Joe Montana did throw some interceptions, but do those define him? And how many of us have actually sat down with pen in hand pondering what the first note of our first symphony or string quartet would be?My take on Marmite lists is that what they illustrate best is just how proficient and competent we are at Monday-morning quarterbacking. And I'm reminded of Leonard Bernstein's essay titled "Why Don't You Run Upstairs and Write A Nice Gershwin Tune?"
But I'm glad you asked the question. You've elicited some very interesting responses.
:-)
Jim
http://jimtranr.com
Edits: 09/13/14
Unlistenable sh#t. Can't imagine why there are so many performances/recordings.
Edit : I was going to add, "But I love Marmite!" But then I would lose all credibility.
Edits: 09/13/14
Can't forgive him the banal melody in L'Arlisienne
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I hate repetitiveness--that makes me turn off all of these composers' works (including both John Adams) except the last two. Webern is like chewing glass. Delius is like looking at a water color that is sitting at the bottom of a pan of water--there are colors that are amorphous and running together in a way that is just dull.
Loved and hated, underrated and overrated. Genius, or hack?
Can't listen to Mozart. I'm probably one of the few, but there we are. I find him a bit emotionally creepy when he's not being boringly predictable in his cadences. I excuse his best late work, but I still don't listen to it.I would have said Bartok several years ago, but I'm very keen on him now. Something just clicked. I've always listened to his quartets and in a recent quartet-athon I realised that it's possible to play Bartok much more lyrically than many do, and that gets to his Hungarian soul. I was never satisfied by the Juilliard or FIne Arts in the quartets, but the Hungarian and Tatrai quartets are on another level of melodic quality. I took this realisation into his other works and am well into many of them.
For me the "Marmite factor" has been growing older. I take nothing for granted - like I find it hard to listen to Miles Davis' trumpet playing seriously. I also don't reward energy in my listening if it's not accompanied by musical insight. I'm finding bangy piano players and over-dramatic conductors tedious. Same with meandering rubato in e.g. Chopin. I want to go straight to the heart of the music. Architecture and melody. I think when you get older you have a much larger repertoire of stuff you don't like. You also build a picture of what's "right" for you.
But thankfully I also discover a lot of new music I really like. I didn't listen much to rock acts but I'm doing so more. And I'm much more interested in World Music.
Edits: 09/13/14 09/13/14
. . . perhaps you are right that he's overrated. I'm inclined to give him a pass however, on the basis of the last 6 or so symphonies, the C-minor Mass, the Requiem, the Rondo in A minor, etc. I think you're basically right about the early stuff - as one writer put it, so uselessly, needlessly perfect! ;-)
What about the operas, piano concertos, string quartets and quintets, piano quartets, and the Gran Partita??
Some of those recitatives in the operas have never worn well for me, and I'm not an unreserved admirer of all his piano concertos, but overall, yes, those are very fine works that you mentioned. Do they make Mozart the greatest composer who ever lived? I guess for some, but not for me. (I'd rather be listening to Glazunov!) ;-)
This was Haydn's opinion (or so they say).
For me, the opposite. When I was first listening to classical music, I was unmoved by Haydn (to pick one example), and over time, became a complete convert. I find that the more I listen to different things, the bigger my window is on appreciating other music.
To fit with the Marmite theme the composers that continue to elude me are especially
Bellini and some of serialist crowd.
If we are limited to the composers on the site linked, I would unhesitatingly choose Liszt as by far the most overrated on that list. I would also agree with Chris on Shostakovitch - I think he truly is what Richard Strauss once jokingly called himself - "the greatest second-rate composer." Others off the top of my head - Milhaud, Delius, Gershwin.
The nobility of the end of the Faust Symphony - so much better than the same text set by Mahler in his overwrought Eighth Symphony! ;-) AFAIR, Copland had some insightful comments on Liszt too. Anything Wagner did, Liszt had already before!
Ask me that question 5 years ago, my answer would have been slam-dunk: Anton Bruckner....
Ask me the question now, it's a tough one. I've since figured out Bruckner. Elgar maybe. Schoenberg maybe. Or even JS Bach- Never really warmed to his music. Johann Strauss was a childhood fave, but hasn't done much for me in my adult life. But unlike Bruckner five years ago, nothing now is a slam-dunk.
Hindemith is not on the list. I personally like Hindemith quite a bit but many I know do not. surprised he wasn't there. I personally agree with the Schumann and Brahms, never cared for them, still don't. I like Wagner's orchestral music more than his operas.
By denying scientific principles, one may maintain any paradox.
Galileo Galilei
. . . is that I think his reputation is not THAT high these days (at least it seems not as high as it used to be), so for that very reason, he's probably not overrated, even if some listeners may find his music dry or dull.
BTW, I can't believe you don't like Schumann and Brahms! ;-)
. . . I'd say Shostakovich for sure. I just don't understand what so many people hear in his music.
(I assume marmite = overrated?)
I can't think of other composers at the moment whom I'd put into this category. Even with composers I don't like, I wouldn't begrudge them their current "ratings" - except for Shostakovich! ;-)
.
My favourite part of the 6th symphony is the last page. I think Shostakovich should have written a whole symphony of endings.....
I like Prokofiev's endings as well - love the 5th symphony, especially when you can hear the jazzy piano. I had a Danish/Tuxen performance where the piano was great.
Just by chance, I happened to be listening to the Svetlanov/Hague recording on the Canyon label day before yesterday (first two movements anyway), on account of having just transferred the CD to iTunes. (Hard to believe, but I do actually have some Shostakovich CD's!) I told my wife before listening that this was one of the most infamous symphonies ever composed - her comment was that it deserved its infamy! ;-)
That's Firebird Suite ( shortest version ) and Bruckner 9th's Scherzo for me!
Alan's right. Digging into Shostakovich (and the history and struggle that define him) takes some effort. And conductors who can handle him (heard a marvelous performance of his Eighth by Calvin Simmons at Zellerbach [now you have a hint about where I worked :-)] and his Tenth by George Cleve in San Jose). No ambivalence here at all about him. He's on my frequently-played list.
Britten and Hindemith also get a fair number of spins in this household. So I guess it's safe to say that for those three composers we've never had to call in Orkin to deal with a marmite infestation.
Jim
http://jimtranr.com
Chris, as you raise the question, "Marmite" doesn't really mean "overrated". It connotes something that has only two possible reactions,love or hate. Any middle ground position such as " quite like" or "not too keen" is impossible.Marmite is an edible spread extracted from yeast, mainly consumed in the UK. It is extraordinarily pungent and provokes extreme reactions. It's advertising campaign is all about the polar reactions it provokes. I love it but when I tried some on some friends from Seattle their faces were quite a picture!
So, a composer may be overrated but still have some positive qualities. One really needs to compare the geniuses with those of no merit at all(at least in one's opinion). So, for me, Haydn in the love corner and anyone who is part of the 1960's Manchester School of composers in the other.
Edits: 09/13/14
I'm glad the original article referred to Marmite which I can happily leave alone, and did not refer to our yummie Vegemite, which my American born wife despises!
Maybe these spreads are an acquired taste just as liking some composer's music and intensely disliking others is a acquired taste. Repeated listening can evoke strange consequences. Years ago, inspired by a glowing Gramophone report, I purchased a Stockhausen piano LP and was horrified at the ":music". Subsequently I often played it to visitors to demonstrate how awful it was but ended up liking it!!!
And I do confess to having made this same mistake since. Inspired by a BBC Music Mag review I purchased a BD of the Pergolesi opera "Adriano in Siria" and enthusiastically set it down as the item of the night to enjoy with our music appreciation friends. Well it went down like a lead balloon - we all hated it and I'm really not prepared to view it multiple times to see if that furthers appreciation. But then I guess others love it!!!
It would be a dull world if we all had the same tastes!!
John
Enjoying 12,000 mostly classical CDs via Sennheiser HD800 headphones & M2TECH Vaughan DAC -> HeadRoom BlockHead headphone amplifier fed from a Meridian (Sooloos) server system.
The main 7.1 MC electrostatic speaker system is for A/V at night.
Vile tasting yeast paste, sez I.
YMMV and all that.
I guess he would be next on my list also but I do find some of his chamber works very attractive.
The other composers I'm hot and cold on are Elgar and Britten although I would not go so far as to label them Marmite because some of their works are awe inspiring. But then others are unappealing to me, particularly some (not all) of the Britten operas.
John
Enjoying 12,000 mostly classical CDs via Sennheiser HD800 headphones & M2TECH Vaughan DAC -> HeadRoom BlockHead headphone amplifier fed from a Meridian (Sooloos) server system.
The main 7.1 MC electrostatic speaker system is for A/V at night.
I always chalked his reputation up to British chauvinism, but actually, he's probably a good candidate too (for being overrated). The very first opera I ever did as a rehearsal pianist was "Albert Herring" - I still hate it to this day. SO lame! ;-)
And I've got a fair amount of his stuff, 'cause my wife loves Pears.
Almost as much as Britten did! =:-0
Lord knows I have tried. But I just don't get it. Yet his music seems to be wildly popular.
He's like the story that on the re-telling, just does not seem funny and at the end the story teller pauses and says...
"I guess you had to be there."
Shostakovich is hard to like. But then, anyone who can piss off Stalin can't be all bad, can they?
But then, as much as I appreciate Mahler, I don't love his works as others do.
I think Shostakovich takes a lot of time and effort. Similar to Mahler and Bruckner. I still feel the 5th symphony is one of the great works of the 20th century. Bruckner is the composer I can't deal with.
Alan
I have heard 3 different orchestras (BBC Phil, Berlin Phil, and San Francisco Symphony) play symphonies live, conducted by Sarasate, Nelsons and Dutoit. I have listened to all of the symphonies, several times with the Kitajenko SACD set, and I have also listened to alternative recordings on LP (Bernstein and Stokowski). I still don't get, although the performance of the 9th with the Berlin Phil almost worked for me.
I did not find Mahler to be nearly as hard - in fact, I related to the first first recording I heard, the Mahler 1 with Walter.
Bruckner is a tougher nut for me, although I love the 8th. Can't deal with the 9th (although it makes more sense with the 4th movement completed), and I find the 5th to be a music professor's dream.....not so interesting for me. I'm good with the 4th and 7th, and still working on the 6th.
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