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In Reply to: RE: Its hardly new in the music biz. posted by David Smith on August 09, 2014 at 07:54:53
What male musician do you know that wouldn't enjoy and comment about a good looking female artist wearing the kind of outfit in the pic Chris posted? In Yuja's case its icing on the cake - the cake being that she's an exceptional player. It ain't like she's the equivalent of Kim Kardashian just trying to get over on her looks alone.
I'd rather listen to (and/or see live, which I've done several times) Jamie Baum than Eliane Elias, but I don't see anything wrong with Eliane taking full advantage of her looks to promote herself. I certainly don't expect men to pretend they don't notice how good she looks in order not to appear sexist.
BTW - planning on seeing you at Smalls Tues. night. Hopefully you won't be wearing a mini skirt and heels.
Follow Ups:
I have a problem with the whole "babe musician" thing, when it comes to serious music. Of course pop stars regularly and virtually exclusively use sex to sell, but I don't think anyone has any allusions of it being about the music either. It's often said that Aretha Franklin would never get signed were she coming up today, and I think the musical content of pop music reflects that.
There are some in the jazz industry that use sex appeal that way, though few who are truly great. I know several women that are exceptional players and are also gorgeous, and none of them would be caught dead in a miniskirt with six inch heels on a jazz gig. Ever see anyone on stage at the Vanguard dressed like that? Of course they look good and dress nicely, nothing wrong with their beauty, but when it clearly becomes an effort to draw attention to their appearance it's not about the music anymore. I prefer it to be about the music.
While different artists will choose different paths, what concerns me is when it begins to take over and become an accepted norm as it is in the pop world, and the musical effect that accompanies that much less the lost opportunities for others. The classical world isn't there yet but it's headed that direction rather strongly of late. The jazz world doesn't seem to have embraced the "babe" approach, for now. Of course, I'm all for women artists having success in their careers, when it's about the music.
Lastly, I have contempt for the denial about it, the "she just finds six-inch heels more comfortable" line, as folks like Scott would have us believe. That's garbage.
Great if you can make it Tuesday, thanks. If you're able to hang out till David Cook's band that's going to be great too. Good bands all night really.
Dave
Well, Esperanza isn't wearing a mini skirt in the video I've linked, but she's sure dressed and made up to accentuate her good looks. Don't see why she shouldn't take advantage of what she's got.
You probably know a lot more female jazz players than I do. Who are some gorgeous ones you know? I wanna Goggle 'em and take a look :-)
Gotta admit that I've only worked with one that even approached gorgeous and she's back in Europe AFAIK. She had to dress a certain way for the gig so I dunno what she'd wear if left to her own choice. Bear in mind that Yuja is a soloist, not just someone sitting in a section or a sidewoman in a jazz quintet.
I would agree with you more if I thought looks was the major factor in getting gigs for female classical or jazz musicians. At least so far I don't think it is, though I'd guess *assuming equal talent* a better looking women would have a better chance. Not so sure its ever been different.
I can't think of any female jazz musicians who'd play the Vanguard in a mini skirt. But I can't think of any hot looking women who've played there other than Esmeralda. I sure wouldn't be bothered by it if a good looking and talented singer working there performed in Yuja's outfit. But I wouldn't pay to get in if I didn't dig her singing. With ticket prices the way they are I seriously doubt anybody pays to go to a Yuja concert just behind her looks either.
Esperanza's outfit there is not particularly provactive or attention-demanding to me, and of course she can present herself as she likes. Context is also important, Yuja wouldn't be out of place at a dinner party (nor would it become the subject of a thread on a forum), but on a concert stage it's a different context. True she's a soloist, it doesn't really change the equation for me.
At ant rate, it's not about Yuja, the only reason I referenced the thread about her is because of Scott's claim that it's all about the playing with her. I don't care about what someone chooses to do or how they choose to dress. I do care about trends whereby a sexy image becomes a prerequisite when it comes to music that ought to be about the music.
We can disagree about it, no biggie here. If you make it Tuesday I have some questions about the HW19 IV, which I think you have/had?
Dave
nt
"I have a problem with the whole "babe musician" thing, when it comes to serious music.It does seem you do have a problem then. 1. You obviously aren't getting the jokes. 2.If you have a problem with young women who dress to look good that is your baggage not ours and not theirs.
"I know several women that are exceptional players and are also gorgeous, and none of them would be caught dead in a miniskirt with six inch heels on a jazz gig. Ever see anyone on stage at the Vanguard dressed like that? Of course they look good and dress nicely, nothing wrong with their beauty, but when it clearly becomes an effort to draw attention to their appearance it's not about the music anymore. I prefer it to be about the music."Again this is about your baggage. You seem to have this idea about what is and is not acceptable attire for musicians. But that is your problem and your distraction form the actual art.
"While different artists will choose different paths, what concerns me is when it begins to take over and become an accepted norm as it is in the pop world, and the musical effect that accompanies that much less the lost opportunities for others."
What seems to worry you is really just in your head. Seriously, do you think young up and coming classical musicians are being denied opportunities because they are not dressing sexy enough?
"The classical world isn't there yet but it's headed that direction rather strongly of late. The jazz world doesn't seem to have embraced the "babe" approach, for now. Of course, I'm all for women artists having success in their careers, when it's about the music."Unless you are hung up about such things it is about the music. Name one successful musician in classical music that has made it on looks and is lacking in talent. I can name several up and coming classical musicians that are less than great looking and dress quite conservatively. And they are doing just fine. Can you name one musician that is making it on sex appeal and not on talent?
"Lastly, I have contempt for the denial about it, the "she just finds six-inch heels more comfortable" line, as folks like Scott would have us believe. That's garbage."
I stated a fact. It is easier for Yuja to play in 4 inch heels than in flats. Apparently you have so much baggage when it comes to this subject that you can process reality. 6 inch heels? Are you nuts?
It's amazing how a short skirt can make some guys literally lose their minds.
Edits: 08/09/14
"It does seem you do have a problem then. 1. You obviously aren't getting the jokes. 2.If you have a problem with young women who dress to look good that is your baggage not ours and not theirs."I'm not talking about "dressing to look good."
"You seem to have this idea about what is and is not acceptable attire for musicians."
I have zero say in what musicians wear at the Vanguard, regardless of ideas you may think I have.
"Seriously, do you think young up and coming classical musicians are being denied opportunities because they are not dressing sexy enough?"
Absolutely.
"Can you name one musician that is making it on sex appeal and not on talent?"
Can you say with certainty that Yuja's ticket and album sales have nothing to do with her dress and appearance?
"I stated a fact. It is easier Yuja to play in 4 inch heels than in flats. Apparently you have so much baggage when it comes to this subject that you can process reality."
You also said she dresses that way at home. Funny how men have failed to take up the 4-inch heel advantage.
Apparently you have so much emotional investment that you are unable to have a discussion without being rude. Little surprise.
Dave
Edits: 08/09/14
Sorry if you find my responses rude but just know that you are simply completely wrong on this subject. Even on the subject of shoes and playing piano. Here's a piece of trivia for you. Most male pianists have substantially longer feet than Yuja. Think about it.
I'm completely wrong on this subject am I? How convincing.
And the bit about the shoes is still complete bullshit. Foot size, really? Too funny. You're entitled to your opinions, but I have no time for bullshitters.
Dave
"I'm completely wrong on this subject am I? How convincing."
well, yeah, you are.
"And the bit about the shoes is still complete bullshit. Foot size, really? Too funny. You're entitled to your opinions,"
It's not an opinion. Yuja told me as much herself. but what would she know about what works best for her playing the piano?
"but I have no time for bullshitters."
This coming from the guy who is just completely making shit up in his head and spouting it as fact?
I was referring to your opinions generally. I'm not surprised that she told you that, seems like a better answer to give someone than "I enjoy playing up my sex appeal".In light of this information it seems vital that boys and girls studying piano immediately go out and get a pair of Jimmy Choo's because of their small feet, and of course for those under 10yo they need bigger heels than a mere 4". What is really needed is a treatise on the topic complete with chart matching foot size with heel height, including whether men with larger feet should be demanding a small hole be cut in the stage to allow optimal compensation for their large feet. Perhaps you would take up the study?
Dave
Edits: 08/10/14
Dude, do actually know ANYTHING at all about how a piano is played?
http://www.pianosupplies.com/pianos/1845_ped_ext.html
http://www.abrsm.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=54816
http://se22pianoschool.wordpress.com/2012/10/05/in-search-of-the-perfect-shoes-for-playing-the-piano/
http://lowepianostudio.blogspot.com/2010/05/short-feet-piano-casters-and-pedaling.html
Take a good look at this picture. Got it? Now take a good look at this picture
https://welltempered.wordpress.com/tag/andrew-hsu/
Take a good careful look at her leg and foot position and try to imagine where her foot would be without the heel.
I just have to ask, do you really think that a world class pianist like Yuja Wang would wear shoes for concerts that would be anything less than ideal for her performances? Really?
Yes I'm somewhat familiar with how the piano is played.
Time to demand those boys and girls get their Jimmy Choo's!
Dave
When Scott says you're just wrong, you just are. What do you know about getting up on stage and playing music? Or the music business in general? LOL.
I'm just curious, what do you think Yuja Wang knows about getting up on stage and playing piano? Do you really believe that she habitually wears shoes that inhibit her ability to properly pedal? Do you believe that she is making false assertions about the advantage she gets from pedaling in high heels due to her small feet?
Don't kill the messenger. I mean if you really think Dave knows more about how to properly play the piano than Yuja just say so.
Have you read any of the many references I provided for Dave on pedaling? Have you looked at the pictures I have linked?
"Yes I'm somewhat familiar with how the piano is played."
Fooled me. I would think someone who knows anything about how the piano is played would understand the basics of pedaling. Maybe your familiarity stops at the hemline? That's where you seem to lose it completely.
I asked the question.
Analog Scott asked the question.
But none of the anti-babe folks ever answer it. Because they can't. And since that pulls the rug out from under their anti-babe complaints, they just ignore the question and post away in delirious anti-babe denial.
Here's the question:
"Can you name one babe musician that is making it on sex appeal and not on talent?"
So I say to the anti-babe folks, answer the question or shut up. :-)
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