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For all the "babe" obsessed asylum inmates, here's a babe.
Yep, she plays violin AND piano AND, well, she's *multi-talented*.
Not only that, there's the very short skirt, which seems to be really important.
What more need I say, because of course, the most important thing seems to be the word "babe."
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
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Tim Bailey
Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger
Without dripping sarcasm emoticons, I guess it was not obvious that I posted this as a mockery of the obsession with "babes."
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
where did you go wrong? With your premise....
.
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
An "obsession" with babes
Just count the number of threads started on this site with the topic "babe" in the subject line, as well as the number of posts pertaining to the looks of female musicians.
Maybe "obsession" seems like a strong word, but there sure are a lot of discussions here like that.
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
I think you are not getting the joke. And that is why this thread didn't work for you. Really amazing given how many times the joke has been explained.
Some of our replies had a certain, if not quite sarcasm, irony too! ;-)
I know you got it, Chris. And actually, as you know, I have nothing against attractive women. I just have a difficult time with the blatantly obvious sexualization of the marketing of female musicians. I realize that sex sells. I just think it is sad that the advertising strategy for promoting these exceptionally talented women tends to emphasize looks rather than talent.
The Asylum is predominately male, and will likely always be a home for those of a testosterone persuasion. So my rare posts related to this topic are not so much criticism of anyone here as a sad comment on the overall state of music marketing.
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
"I just have a difficult time with the blatantly obvious sexualization of the marketing of female musicians. I realize that sex sells. I just think it is sad that the advertising strategy for promoting these exceptionally talented women tends to emphasize looks rather than talent."
Have you actually looked at the actual marketing? Please do tell me how "blatantly sexual" DG's marketing strategy actually is. Here's a link.
http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/us/artist/wang/biography
Or Opus 3
http://www.opus3artists.com/artists/yuja-wang
I'm just not seeing any blatant sexuality in any of their marketing.
Obviously rock has been using sex as a marketing tool forever, in both live performance outfits, sexual dancing etc. as well as pics/artwork on album covers.
A number of Miles' records in the 60's were more subtle, but utilized his visual appeal on covers, and his outfits at live performances during his later "electric" years weren't exactly conservative. He always radiated sex appeal for women.
Vocalists like Julie London were showing tits and ass many moons ago, and Tom Jones and plenty of other men were using sex appeal to sell their music. Sinatra didn't dress in an outlandish style nor employ sexual dancing in his shows, but surely sex appeal was a purposely developed part of his persona and helped sell his music.
"Classical" artists, promoters, orchestra presidents etc. were just behind in this area. In my lifetime they've catered to what they thought appealed to older wealthy patrons, and part of what older wealthy people think differentiates themselves from the masses is formal dress and conservative "propriety" - at least in public :-) I guess the classical world also felt the music demands "respect", which for some reason means tuxes and gowns and overall performance formality. Its no surprise that the increase in using sex to sell classical artists coincides with the decline in both sales of recordings and attendance at concerts.
Dunno where you live, but unless its Antarctica young women are probably walking around town in shorts/skirts that barely cover their asses, and young men wear tight fitting shirts/jeans. Who but rich older women goes out to concerts, movies, dinner wearing long black gowns? I doubt tuxedos/tails sales are booming either.
I think for many younger people the whole experience of attending classical concerts has an aura of staidness they find unappealing. There's so much great music that in fact is very far from staid. IMO its way overdue for the classical music biz - and it *is* a biz - to catch up to the times. Wearing outfits that show off attractive bodies doesn't make anyone play worse, nor IMO does it demean the music.
I might draw the line at Tina Turner-like dancing during Prokofiev concertos. Wouldn't be surprised to see Tom Jones-esque crotch padding showing up in pics of new tenor stars on the covers of Puccini cd's though :-)
correct. Obviously. But for me, in my own, totally subjective, very humble opinion, it's always a letdown when a hot babe doesn't quite live up to her hype. And that is almost inevitable, even for very talented hot babes, because they tend to get hyped above and beyond equally good musicians who happen to be ordinary looking or ugly.
Years ago I had a conversation with a young (and ordinary looking) female pro violinist who had studied with the same teacher and at the same time as Dylana Jenson. This was a couple of years after Jenson had recorded the Sibelius concerto with Ormandy and become a major Young Sensation at the age of 17. The plain Jane violinist was obviously a little jealous of Jenson's success, but said with great conviction that Jenson was good and had worked hard but was nothing special.
Sure enough, Jenson is pretty much forgotten today. No doubt she is still a very good violinist, but now she is merely a good-looking middle-aged woman rather than a hot young babe.
Any art form that pushes sex appeal too hard is distracting from the best of what the art has to offer. Hey, they could put hot babes on stage and forget about music. No wait, that's been done. ;-)
Babe Violinist who made the BIG TIME on looks alone? Child Prodigy? Maybe, Babe Violinist? Try again!
Dylana Jenson does have an interesting story but it has nothing to do with her sex appeal or lack of.
Nigel Kennedy. A very fine violinist, no two ways about it. Then he decides to (attempt to) dress, act and even speak like a punk rocker, and be known as "Kennedy".
Yuck. But still better than seeing him in a skin-tight miniskirt.
I never said it was new. I don't live in Antarctica. And I do know what the world is like. And I am quite familiar with the marketing of albums historically, since, well, I was there.
But the extent to which sexual imagery has invaded classical music certainly has increased in recent years. Yep, there were always cover art of harem girls on album covers for Sheherazade.
I'm not even complaining about short skirts and pretty pictures of musicians.
I am just sad that the world of classical music has now been taken over by overt sexualization of female musicians. It's like a contest of which marketing department will be the most lascivious in its efforts to sell Fem 1 vs Fem 2 vs Fem 3. Actual musical talent has become secondary. So Yuja Wang becomes noted, not for her musical talent, but because she wears short skirts and 6" heels.
Just look at the posts on this board. We can make lists of babes who play piano and violin and cello, because of the sexualized marketing. Are they better musicians than the males who win competitions and record? Can anyone even name a young male pianist who has released a great new CD or performed brilliantly in concert - based on posts here? Is the dearth of posts regarding outstanding male musicians because there aren't any? Or is it because girls in short skirts trump musical talent?
This is not a condemnation of anyone here. Chris and I agree on many things and I respect him immensely. My post here was simply a fun bit of ribbing about this ever-present issue.
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
Both Stalin and Shostakovitch were infatuated with her.
Would have loved to have met her!
nt
Actually Yuja Wang is noted for her talent which is exceptional.
But you are cherry picking. Chris has spent far more time talking about Yuja's talent as a pianist than he has talking about her sex appeal.
"You should have seen the dress she rehearsed in."
What male musician do you know that wouldn't enjoy and comment about a good looking female artist wearing the kind of outfit in the pic Chris posted? In Yuja's case its icing on the cake - the cake being that she's an exceptional player. It ain't like she's the equivalent of Kim Kardashian just trying to get over on her looks alone.
I'd rather listen to (and/or see live, which I've done several times) Jamie Baum than Eliane Elias, but I don't see anything wrong with Eliane taking full advantage of her looks to promote herself. I certainly don't expect men to pretend they don't notice how good she looks in order not to appear sexist.
BTW - planning on seeing you at Smalls Tues. night. Hopefully you won't be wearing a mini skirt and heels.
I have a problem with the whole "babe musician" thing, when it comes to serious music. Of course pop stars regularly and virtually exclusively use sex to sell, but I don't think anyone has any allusions of it being about the music either. It's often said that Aretha Franklin would never get signed were she coming up today, and I think the musical content of pop music reflects that.
There are some in the jazz industry that use sex appeal that way, though few who are truly great. I know several women that are exceptional players and are also gorgeous, and none of them would be caught dead in a miniskirt with six inch heels on a jazz gig. Ever see anyone on stage at the Vanguard dressed like that? Of course they look good and dress nicely, nothing wrong with their beauty, but when it clearly becomes an effort to draw attention to their appearance it's not about the music anymore. I prefer it to be about the music.
While different artists will choose different paths, what concerns me is when it begins to take over and become an accepted norm as it is in the pop world, and the musical effect that accompanies that much less the lost opportunities for others. The classical world isn't there yet but it's headed that direction rather strongly of late. The jazz world doesn't seem to have embraced the "babe" approach, for now. Of course, I'm all for women artists having success in their careers, when it's about the music.
Lastly, I have contempt for the denial about it, the "she just finds six-inch heels more comfortable" line, as folks like Scott would have us believe. That's garbage.
Great if you can make it Tuesday, thanks. If you're able to hang out till David Cook's band that's going to be great too. Good bands all night really.
Dave
Well, Esperanza isn't wearing a mini skirt in the video I've linked, but she's sure dressed and made up to accentuate her good looks. Don't see why she shouldn't take advantage of what she's got.
You probably know a lot more female jazz players than I do. Who are some gorgeous ones you know? I wanna Goggle 'em and take a look :-)
Gotta admit that I've only worked with one that even approached gorgeous and she's back in Europe AFAIK. She had to dress a certain way for the gig so I dunno what she'd wear if left to her own choice. Bear in mind that Yuja is a soloist, not just someone sitting in a section or a sidewoman in a jazz quintet.
I would agree with you more if I thought looks was the major factor in getting gigs for female classical or jazz musicians. At least so far I don't think it is, though I'd guess *assuming equal talent* a better looking women would have a better chance. Not so sure its ever been different.
I can't think of any female jazz musicians who'd play the Vanguard in a mini skirt. But I can't think of any hot looking women who've played there other than Esmeralda. I sure wouldn't be bothered by it if a good looking and talented singer working there performed in Yuja's outfit. But I wouldn't pay to get in if I didn't dig her singing. With ticket prices the way they are I seriously doubt anybody pays to go to a Yuja concert just behind her looks either.
Esperanza's outfit there is not particularly provactive or attention-demanding to me, and of course she can present herself as she likes. Context is also important, Yuja wouldn't be out of place at a dinner party (nor would it become the subject of a thread on a forum), but on a concert stage it's a different context. True she's a soloist, it doesn't really change the equation for me.
At ant rate, it's not about Yuja, the only reason I referenced the thread about her is because of Scott's claim that it's all about the playing with her. I don't care about what someone chooses to do or how they choose to dress. I do care about trends whereby a sexy image becomes a prerequisite when it comes to music that ought to be about the music.
We can disagree about it, no biggie here. If you make it Tuesday I have some questions about the HW19 IV, which I think you have/had?
Dave
nt
"I have a problem with the whole "babe musician" thing, when it comes to serious music.It does seem you do have a problem then. 1. You obviously aren't getting the jokes. 2.If you have a problem with young women who dress to look good that is your baggage not ours and not theirs.
"I know several women that are exceptional players and are also gorgeous, and none of them would be caught dead in a miniskirt with six inch heels on a jazz gig. Ever see anyone on stage at the Vanguard dressed like that? Of course they look good and dress nicely, nothing wrong with their beauty, but when it clearly becomes an effort to draw attention to their appearance it's not about the music anymore. I prefer it to be about the music."Again this is about your baggage. You seem to have this idea about what is and is not acceptable attire for musicians. But that is your problem and your distraction form the actual art.
"While different artists will choose different paths, what concerns me is when it begins to take over and become an accepted norm as it is in the pop world, and the musical effect that accompanies that much less the lost opportunities for others."
What seems to worry you is really just in your head. Seriously, do you think young up and coming classical musicians are being denied opportunities because they are not dressing sexy enough?
"The classical world isn't there yet but it's headed that direction rather strongly of late. The jazz world doesn't seem to have embraced the "babe" approach, for now. Of course, I'm all for women artists having success in their careers, when it's about the music."Unless you are hung up about such things it is about the music. Name one successful musician in classical music that has made it on looks and is lacking in talent. I can name several up and coming classical musicians that are less than great looking and dress quite conservatively. And they are doing just fine. Can you name one musician that is making it on sex appeal and not on talent?
"Lastly, I have contempt for the denial about it, the "she just finds six-inch heels more comfortable" line, as folks like Scott would have us believe. That's garbage."
I stated a fact. It is easier for Yuja to play in 4 inch heels than in flats. Apparently you have so much baggage when it comes to this subject that you can process reality. 6 inch heels? Are you nuts?
It's amazing how a short skirt can make some guys literally lose their minds.
Edits: 08/09/14
"It does seem you do have a problem then. 1. You obviously aren't getting the jokes. 2.If you have a problem with young women who dress to look good that is your baggage not ours and not theirs."I'm not talking about "dressing to look good."
"You seem to have this idea about what is and is not acceptable attire for musicians."
I have zero say in what musicians wear at the Vanguard, regardless of ideas you may think I have.
"Seriously, do you think young up and coming classical musicians are being denied opportunities because they are not dressing sexy enough?"
Absolutely.
"Can you name one musician that is making it on sex appeal and not on talent?"
Can you say with certainty that Yuja's ticket and album sales have nothing to do with her dress and appearance?
"I stated a fact. It is easier Yuja to play in 4 inch heels than in flats. Apparently you have so much baggage when it comes to this subject that you can process reality."
You also said she dresses that way at home. Funny how men have failed to take up the 4-inch heel advantage.
Apparently you have so much emotional investment that you are unable to have a discussion without being rude. Little surprise.
Dave
Edits: 08/09/14
Sorry if you find my responses rude but just know that you are simply completely wrong on this subject. Even on the subject of shoes and playing piano. Here's a piece of trivia for you. Most male pianists have substantially longer feet than Yuja. Think about it.
I'm completely wrong on this subject am I? How convincing.
And the bit about the shoes is still complete bullshit. Foot size, really? Too funny. You're entitled to your opinions, but I have no time for bullshitters.
Dave
"I'm completely wrong on this subject am I? How convincing."
well, yeah, you are.
"And the bit about the shoes is still complete bullshit. Foot size, really? Too funny. You're entitled to your opinions,"
It's not an opinion. Yuja told me as much herself. but what would she know about what works best for her playing the piano?
"but I have no time for bullshitters."
This coming from the guy who is just completely making shit up in his head and spouting it as fact?
I was referring to your opinions generally. I'm not surprised that she told you that, seems like a better answer to give someone than "I enjoy playing up my sex appeal".In light of this information it seems vital that boys and girls studying piano immediately go out and get a pair of Jimmy Choo's because of their small feet, and of course for those under 10yo they need bigger heels than a mere 4". What is really needed is a treatise on the topic complete with chart matching foot size with heel height, including whether men with larger feet should be demanding a small hole be cut in the stage to allow optimal compensation for their large feet. Perhaps you would take up the study?
Dave
Edits: 08/10/14
Dude, do actually know ANYTHING at all about how a piano is played?
http://www.pianosupplies.com/pianos/1845_ped_ext.html
http://www.abrsm.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=54816
http://se22pianoschool.wordpress.com/2012/10/05/in-search-of-the-perfect-shoes-for-playing-the-piano/
http://lowepianostudio.blogspot.com/2010/05/short-feet-piano-casters-and-pedaling.html
Take a good look at this picture. Got it? Now take a good look at this picture
https://welltempered.wordpress.com/tag/andrew-hsu/
Take a good careful look at her leg and foot position and try to imagine where her foot would be without the heel.
I just have to ask, do you really think that a world class pianist like Yuja Wang would wear shoes for concerts that would be anything less than ideal for her performances? Really?
Yes I'm somewhat familiar with how the piano is played.
Time to demand those boys and girls get their Jimmy Choo's!
Dave
When Scott says you're just wrong, you just are. What do you know about getting up on stage and playing music? Or the music business in general? LOL.
I'm just curious, what do you think Yuja Wang knows about getting up on stage and playing piano? Do you really believe that she habitually wears shoes that inhibit her ability to properly pedal? Do you believe that she is making false assertions about the advantage she gets from pedaling in high heels due to her small feet?
Don't kill the messenger. I mean if you really think Dave knows more about how to properly play the piano than Yuja just say so.
Have you read any of the many references I provided for Dave on pedaling? Have you looked at the pictures I have linked?
"Yes I'm somewhat familiar with how the piano is played."
Fooled me. I would think someone who knows anything about how the piano is played would understand the basics of pedaling. Maybe your familiarity stops at the hemline? That's where you seem to lose it completely.
I asked the question.
Analog Scott asked the question.
But none of the anti-babe folks ever answer it. Because they can't. And since that pulls the rug out from under their anti-babe complaints, they just ignore the question and post away in delirious anti-babe denial.
Here's the question:
"Can you name one babe musician that is making it on sex appeal and not on talent?"
So I say to the anti-babe folks, answer the question or shut up. :-)
Still cherry picking. It was quite a dress though.
All part of "noting her talent" I guess.
Dave
You seem to be failing to understand something I would think would be obvious, that one can talk about things other than Yuja's talent and still be focused on her talent. here is a thread I started back when Yuja was a relative unknown. Tell me how much do I talk about her dresses in ratio to how much I talk about her talent?
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/the-next-superstar-pianist-yuja-wang.174129/
I could cite many other examples if I thought it was worth the effort.
"Yuja's latest fashion statement...What I love is the looks on the faces of the guys in the orchestra!"
It's funny, Madeline (my wife) is generally contemptuous of babe musicians of any type (especially babe violinists for some reason), but she makes an exception for Yuja!Addendum: So I posted about Munch conducting the Sibelius Seventh Symphony. No babe connection at all, but. . . no response either! ;-)
Another addendum: Quite a few of the responses are IMHO very thoughtfully considered as we all try to come to terms with this brave new world of classical music wherein sex appeal is marketed even more aggressively than musical talent itself. I guess the question we all have at the back of our minds is, as was asked in the Dutch documentary about Janine Jansen, would she have succeeded as much in her musical career if she had been less attractive? My personal view (and I've stated this before) is that there are so many outstanding and accomplished young talents (all of whom deserve successful careers IMHO) that non-musical criteria, such as physical attractiveness, are used to decide who gets the marketing muscle behind them.
Edits: 08/09/14 08/09/14
It would be nice if it were as honest and pure as sex appeal. really, there isn't much marketing muscle in the classical music business today. What you really don't hear that much about is the real prejudice in classical music. What school you came from and who was your teacher. the real stumbling block is the opportunity to get on the big stage and show your stuff. That opportunity is very political. But once these musicians are out there it is the audience that decides who succeeds and who does not. There really isn't much marketing out there. It is quite clear that Yuja has exploded on the classical scene because she is a rare and exceptional talent not because she wears short skirts. But who knows if she would have been given the opportunity to play major concerts as a teenager had she not been the star pupil of Gary Graffman out of Curtis. Of course one can argue that she was the star pupil of Gary Graffman and went to Curtis because she was such an exceptional talent.
"I am just sad that the world of classical music has now been taken over by overt sexualization of female musicians. It's like a contest of which marketing department will be the most lascivious in its efforts to sell Fem 1 vs Fem 2 vs Fem 3. Actual musical talent has become secondary."
Examples please.
The only person around here guilty of "overt sexualization of female musicians" is you. Don't you get it? You're compensating for the fact that you really dig the sexual aspect of the current crop of babe musicians, and so no one will suspect, you raise your voice in protest. YOU are the one who posted the little girl in the yellow "skirt". Give a single example of any current babe who is not musically talented but is enjoying massive success and popularity due to her looks. You can't. Anything "lascivious" regarding the babes is all in your mind. You are the one who feels that way about them.
Promo Image.
Hmm, a Messiaen concert played by the Art Ensemble of Chicago would've been interesting :-)
I saw the still of the video, and knew what it was.... It has been around for several years.
I was impressed the first time I watched it, but it kind of wore out quickly afterwards.... I was hoping to see more from her since the video was posted. I remember remnants of Mozart's "Turkish March" in the music......
Never knew the name of the performer....
I just played it again..... Forgot it also had a snippet of Mozart's 40th Symphony.......
Yes indeedy.
"The problem with quotes from the internet is that many of them are just made up."
-Abraham Lincoln
Thanks! for sharing.
"For all the "babe" obsessed asylum inmates, here's a babe.
Yep, she plays violin AND piano AND, well, she's *multi-talented*.
Not only that, there's the very short skirt, which seems to be really important.
What more need I say, because of course, the most important thing seems to be the word "babe.""
You post would seem to be more appreciated by the anti-babe contingent rather then the babe appreciators.
She's not wearing a short skirt - you have a dirty little mind.
Your last sentence exposes you as being babe-clueless. And you're right, there is nothing more you need to say about it. :-)
I should have remembered that when I posted about Munch conducting Sibelius' Seventh Symphony (a few threads below)! (I just can't seem to work in the "babe" angle on that topic.) ;-)
BTW, I foresee a very successful career for the babe in your embedded video - that's a girl who knows the meaning of "Let me entertain you"!
Or, so I have been told.
ATB,
JM
PS: I just learned that supposedly Mitropolous was to succeed Koussevitvsky, but according to myth, legend, and The Historical Documents (from the movie "Galaxy Quest"), BERNSTEIN played the "Gay Card" on: Mitropolous!
There are many circles in Hell, I guess.
And how't that for the Thread Hijack of the Year!
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