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That's the thread where I asked if any of you had questions about Celibidache which I could relay to bassoonist Friedrich Edelmann, with whom I was performing at the time and who had been in the Munich Philharmonic during Celi's entire tenure there. As a matter of fact, Amphissa had some very thoughtful questions which, because of the scheduling and travel involved in the actual concerts, we were unable to discuss at length at the time. (I hope Friedrich will forgive me for saying he "weaseled out" of the discussion in one of my posts in that thread - not really true, just my feeble attempt at a colorful way of describing things!)
Anyway, I guess that Friedrich, who has been back in Germany for awhile now, just recently became aware of our AA discussion, and has graciously replied today with a post that includes some very interesting extended excerpts from his book describing his time in the orchestra with Celibidache. The link is below.
Friedrich - Thank you VERY MUCH!
Follow Ups:
And what exactly does you friend (or you) recommend as an introduction to Maestro Celibidache?
Those EMI boxes with the Munich Phil are so cheap now from Amazon resellers that you could get the whole box of, for instance, his Bruckner symphonies (starting with No. 3 - no 1 or 2 unfortunately), plus the Te Deum and the F-minor Mass (11 discs) for $33. As I mentioned in that earlier thread, Celi's tempos are often on the very slow side (slow, but often with an inexorable power).
One reviewer commenting on the first movement:
"If most good Bruckner Eighths make you feel like you are on top of a mountain looking at a majestic view around you, the Celibidache makes you feel like you are floating down a river with the mountains towering above you"
sky before you which you realize as you are hurled into space was the edge of a waterfallllllll…"
What a great metaphor.
solos...
what is meant by "doubling"?
I don't have a musical background, so sorry if it is a elementary school question.
Doubling is putting an additional player on a single part, for purposes of dynamics and/or tone quality. IOW, the bassoon parts in a piece written with bassoon 1 and bassoon 2 parts could be doubled by putting 2 players on the bassoon 1 part and another two players on the bassoon 2 part - 4 players in all, rather than just 2.
One recording I know of which doubles the horn parts in thrilling fashion is Previn's early Strauss LP with the LSO.
Interesting excerpt; thanks for sharing. In the interest of thoroughness and balance (pun intended) it should be pointed out that doubling of individual orchestral parts, unless indicated in the score, can rightfully be considered taking excessive "artistic license" even if the effect is subjectively "better" as concerns dynamic balance. If, for instance, a fff string passage is drowning out the winds in, say, a Mahler symphony, an argument can be made for, instead of doubling the wind parts, to have the strings play less. I am not opposed to the idea in principle, but second guessing a composer's intentions is always a fine line to walk.
Here we go again with the supposed sanctity of the score, as if it is some holy writ passed down from the heavens.
And that's especially true with Bruckner, who couldn't decide what the score was with most any of his symphonies.
Thankfully, there has always been great diversity among conductors in technique and interpretive method. The world of music is better for the artistry of their varied musical visions.
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
Amphissa, take it easy! Who's talking about sanctity of anything. I hope we can at least agree that, just as as there can be judicious use of artistic license, there can also be excessive and tasteless use of it. Care needs to be taken; no?
Well, according to your previous post, doubling an instrument is excessive artistic license, even if the effect is better, because it's not in the score. And that conductors making changes like that are second-guessing the intent of the composer.
I would say that conductors do not necessarily make changes in an attempt to second-guess the intent of the composer. I would say that conductors often make changes for creative, artistic purposes. Mahler did not revise Schumann's symphonies in order to second-guess the intent of the composer. Furtwangler was not especially concerned about rigid fidelity to the scores of Brahms and Beethoven. Celibidache interpreted Bruckner by way of his own conception of how to best bring the music to life. Most everyone ignores the tempo markings of Gliere's 3rd and most recordings contain cuts imposed by the conductors, not approved by the composer.
The list could go on and on. My only point is that the world of music is enriched by the creative interpretation of conductors that often intentionally deviates from the score.
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
I think that our personal predispositions re any given subject tend to slant how we interpret what we read as well as how we each express ourselves. I think that regardless of the strength of the argument, when all is said and done, I will tend to fall on the more conservative (honor the score) side of this issue, while you would probably fall on the more liberal side of it. Having said that, I said nothing about the subject that was absolutist in nature.****I am not opposed to the idea in principle, but second guessing a composer's intentions is always a fine line to walk.****
I also said:
****....even if the end result is SUBJECTIVELY better****
IOW, if it is better to a particular listener; it may not be to some one else.
Perhaps I expressed myself poorly, but my point was simply that care should be taken when, yes, second guessing what the composer intended. I agree with you that much fine music has been made that deviated from the score, but I hope you are not suggesting that there is no room for caution; that "anything goes" in the interest of an interpreter's vision of a work. There certainly are many examples, recorded and otherwise, of artistic license that did not serve the music well; admittedly, judged using my yardstick and that of other like minded listeners if not that of every listener. Or is there also no room for criticism as poster merlinus seems to suggest?
Edits: 04/21/14 04/21/14 04/21/14
Criticism is fine, as long as it does not make someone wrong. Beauty, for better or worse, is in the eye of the holder, and indeed, it is futile to argue about taste.
Even as a relatively accomplished amateur pianist, I can never hope to play the presto and vivace tempi indicated in the LvB sonatas, but the music is still incredible, to my ears and spirit, at any speed.
As another example, Bernstein is often criticized for his attempts to wring out every bit of emotion in Mahler, often using much different tempi and accents than written in the score, but for me, he is unsurpassed.
Excessive and tasteless? What is the yardstick -- your experience, or mine?
Mine; of course :-). In seriousness, and if interested, please read my response to Amphissa.
True - there's no question that artistic license is involved. I guess it's up to individual listeners and musicians to decide whether such doublings are excessive - perhaps on a case by case basis.
The story I always like is that in one of the Vaughan Williams symphonies, one of the wind parts is buried by the strings in one section. One conductor (Boult?) was worried about this and asked RVW what should be done so that the wind part could be heard. Vaughan Williams replied that he didn't WANT the wind player to be heard in that place - he only wrote that part in so that the player could "warm up" a bit before his solo a few measures later! ;-)
Was RVW a musicians composer, or what?
Excellent! Hadn't heard that one. And I rest my case re second guessing the composer.
d
Appropriate for the subject of this thread: "Show me the money!"
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