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In Reply to: RE: You've Actually Supported My Point posted by Mike Porper on June 08, 2012 at 14:08:44
Your assertion was that 95% of live music was actually lip synced. And it does seem that you are now conceding that it was something you just made up. So thank you for finally conceding my point.
Follow Ups:
"Your assertion was that 95% of live music was actually lip synced."
You're distorting Mike's original statement...... He said 95 percent of live *pop* music is either lip-sync'ed or played back....... I'm not sure if it's actually that high, but I'm certain it is high nonetheless.
Personally, if I thought he exaggerated the number, which might be the case, I'd maybe question the number....... But IMO, he's nailed the problem with most popular music today, exaggerated or not.
From me personally, what I find disappointing is the militant attitude from those either defending or denying the practice of faking performance....... And it's about time the few real music critics remaining developed a backbone and started going on the offensive........ As far as I'm concerned, the inmates have been running the asylum. For too long.
IMO, there is no better experience than live music. But it will become extinct if the practice of faking it and not disclosing it does not get cited for what it is.
> > You're distorting Mike's original statement...... He said 95 percent of live *pop* music is either lip-sync'ed or played back....... I'm not sure if it's actually that high, but I'm certain it is high nonetheless.> >
That's nice. Since when has any of the examples I used to rebut his assertion fallen out of the general category of pop?
What exactly is "high?" some might see 1% as high.
> > Personally, if I thought he exaggerated the number, which might be the case, I'd maybe question the number....... But IMO, he's nailed the problem with most popular music today, exaggerated or not.> >
"The problem?" really this is "he" problem?
Either you think he exaggerated the number or you don't think he exaggerated the number. Which is it. I think he pulled it out of his ass and it is way off.
> > From me personally, what I find disappointing is the militant attitude from those either defending or denying the practice of faking performance.......> >
And who here is actually doing that? Smells like a burning straw mane to me.
> > And it's about time the few real music critics remaining developed a backbone and started going on the offensive........ As far as I'm concerned, the inmates have been running the asylum. For too long.> >
As far as I am concerned it's funny when one inmate calls another inmate crazy in any asylum.
95 percent of music being lip-synced is not the same as 95 percent of pop music being lip-synced or played back.............
> > Personally, if I thought he exaggerated the number, which might be the case, I'd maybe question the number....... But IMO, he's nailed the problem with most popular music today, exaggerated or not.> >
"The problem?" really this is "he" problem?
You think it's *not* a problem? I think it's a terminal problem! A grave problem...... The entertainment is trying to pass faked music as real. That's not a problem??
Either you think he exaggerated the number or you don't think he exaggerated the number. Which is it. I think he pulled it out of his ass and it is way off.
A fair opinion....... You might be right..... But I think trying to split hairs over the details digresses to the fact it's a terminal problem. That's my point.
> > From me personally, what I find disappointing is the militant attitude from those either defending or denying the practice of faking performance.......> >
And who here is actually doing that?
You think you're not actually doing that?
Smells like a burning straw mane to me.
So what is the reality, from your perspective? I'm open eyes and ears. Thank you.
> > > "The problem?" really this is "he" problem?> > >
> > You think it's *not* a problem? I think it's a terminal problem! A grave problem...... The entertainment is trying to pass faked music as real. That's not a problem??> >
Todd you talk about things being taken out of context. Certainly you understand the huge difference between saying something is "the" problem compared to saying something is "a" problem. Is it "a" problem? Depends on the circumstance. If it is a concert I payed to go see then yes it is a problem. If it is the national anthem at the superbowl then no, it is not a problem. Is it "the" problem? No, there is no one singular problem in music today. There are many problems of varying degrees.
> > > Either you think he exaggerated the number or you don't think he exaggerated the number. Which is it. I think he pulled it out of his ass and it is way off.> > >
> > A fair opinion....... You might be right..... But I think trying to split hairs over the details digresses to the fact it's a terminal problem. That's my point.> >
How is it splitting hairs? It is IMO an outrageous claim.
> > > > From me personally, what I find disappointing is the militant attitude from those either defending or denying the practice of faking performance.......> > > >
> > > And who here is actually doing that?> > >
> > You think you're not actually doing that?> >
Not even close. I am saying the number claimed at 95% is ridiculous and completely made up. You do understand that there is a substantial world of possibilities between 95% and 0% do you not? I personally cited three examples of lip syncing that I personally witnessed. So do tell me how am I either denying or defending the practice of faking a performance?
> > > Smells like a burning straw mane to me.> > >
> > So what is the reality, from your perspective? I'm open eyes and ears. Thank you.> >
The reality is that it has happened since the beginning of recorded music and sometimes it is an act of fraud and sometimes it has simply been a benign thing that some programs prefer when having live acts. It's nothing new and it is not nearly as common as the claim of 95%. "Most" rock/pop artists really do play their music live when they perform in concert. TV appearances are more a function of what the show wants than what the artist wants. IMO that is the reality.
t
You're 110% correct 200% of the time.
"what I find disappointing is the militant attitude from those either defending or denying the practice of faking performance"
You're confusing "defending or denying" with having some concern for informed comments and facts. "I am certain it is high" is neither.
"You're confusing 'defending or denying' with having some concern for informed comments and facts."
So you believe the concern over accuracy of the quantity of pop music being lip-synced or playback is more important than the concern over the fact such practice is ghastly widespread?
"'I am certain it is high' is neither."
So what are the facts? Your bold statement suggests you have some deep and detailed knowledge on this subject. Maybe some of us here will learn something. Thank you.
"Your bold statement suggests you have some deep and detailed knowledge on this subject."
I know what a fact is for starters, and how it is different from an opinion or a wild guess or rampant internet speculation based on an uninformed opinion.
I also have experience both with live performance and using various forms of technology, and as a result I understand what is possible and what is not possible.
I guess all of these reporters are lying, all of this is BS, all "pulled out of their ***', and none of them "know what a sound check is".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lip_sync#In_music
Some artists switch between live singing and lip-synching during the performance of a single song.
Some singers habitually lip-sync during live performance, both concert and televised.
Sometimes lip-synching performances are forced by television for short guest appearances, as it requires less time for rehearsals and hugely simplifies the process of sound mixing. Some artists, however, lip-synch as they are not as confident singing live and lip-synching can eliminate the possibility of hitting any bad notes.
Artists often lip-sync certain portions during strenuous dance numbers in both live and recorded performances, due to lung capacity being needed for physical activity (both at once would require incredibly trained lungs).
Ian Inglis, author of Performance and Popular Music: History, Place and Time (2006) notes the fact that "Jackson lip-synced 'Billie Jean' is, in itself, not extraordinary, but the fact that it did not change the impact of the performance is extraordinary; whether the performance was live or lip-synced made no difference to the audience."
In 1989, a New York Times article claimed that "Bananarama's recent concert at the Palladium", the "first song had a big beat, layered vocal harmonies and a dance move for every line of lyrics", but "the drum kit was untouched until five songs into the set, or that the backup vocals (and, it seemed, some of the lead vocals as well-a hybrid lead performance) were on tape along with the beat". The article also claims that "British band Depeche Mode, ...adds vocals and a few keyboard lines to taped backup onstage" although this practice is common place in the genre of electric music.[3]
Chris Nelson of The New York Times reported that by the 1990s, "[a]rtists like Madonna and Janet Jackson set new standards for showmanship, with concerts that included not only elaborate costumes and precision-timed pyrotechnics but also highly athletic dancing. These effects came at the expense of live singing." Edna Gundersen of USA Today reported: "The most obvious example is Madonna's Blond Ambition World Tour, a visually preoccupied and heavily choreographed spectacle. Madonna lip-syncs the duet Now I'm Following You, while a Dick Tracy character mouths Warren Beatty's recorded vocals. On other songs, background singers plump up her voice, strained by the exertion of non-stop dancing."
Similarly, in reviewing Janet Jackson's Rhythm Nation World Tour, Michael MacCambridge of the Austin American-Statesman commented "[i]t seemed unlikely that anyone—even a prized member of the First Family of Soul Music—could dance like she did for 90 minutes and still provide the sort of powerful vocals that the '90s super concerts are expected to achieve."
During the 2008 Beijing Olympics, CTV news reported that a "nine-year-old Chinese girl's stunning performance at the Beijing Olympics opening ceremony has been marred by revelations she was lip-synching". The article states that "Lin Miaoke was lip-synching Friday to a version of "Ode to the Motherland" sung by seven-year-old Yang Peiyi, who was deemed not pretty enough to perform as China's representative".
During Super Bowl XLIII, "Jennifer Hudson's flawless performance of the national anthem" was "lip-synched ...to a previously recorded track, and apparently so did Faith Hill who performed before her".
On the 2009 finals of The X Factor, Cheryl Cole partly mimed one of her new songs. In 2009, US pop singer Britney Spears was " 'extremely upset' over the savaging she has received after lip-synching at her Australian shows".
Teenage viral video star Keenan Cahill lip-syncs popular songs on his YouTube channel. His popularity has increased as he included guests such as rapper 50 Cent in November 2010 and David Guetta in January 2011, sending him to be one of the most popular channels on YouTube in January 2011.
Then there's no problem.
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