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In Reply to: RE: Tell us about your room posted by JBen on February 16, 2017 at 18:12:25
If only! The radiators do bang when the heat comes up, often more loudly than the music. But the real problem is the radiator that insists on living where my left hand woofer panels should be. I spoke to the plumber about moving it to another wall but it usually takes at least a year before the plumber shows up to do anything.
Same sadly undersized listening room, by the way, I just reoriented things so that the fireplace is on my right instead of behind my speakers. Works much better sonically but it doesn't do wonders for the appearance of the room, unless I push the panels back beyond the fireplace, in which case the image suffers since they're only 3' from the wall. Maybe my RFZ will do something about that.
Glad you're getting a new TV but sorry to hear it will be creating sonic problems! One good thing about a projector, it doesn't get in the way.
Still not sure whether the computer will be too noisy but I'm about to find out. If it is, it goes back in my home office and I run long cables, the way I used to have it. It's a good arrangement but it's a PITA because of all the cables. Either that, or I put ventilation in the closet and put the computer there, but that's something else I don't have time to do as it means knocking through two walls and running a flexible duct between them.
I originally equipped this computer with a supposedly quiet power supply but it turned out to have an annoying characteristic in that there's an annoying thunking in between fan off and fan on because the fan can't decided whether to turn or not so it sits there shaking instead . . .
Follow Ups:
Hmm, Josh, sorry to hear that. Most folks I know in the North Central and Northeastern states can enjoy a very low background noise level most of the year. Me, I have to roast in sauna-like heat after turning the A/C off for hours. But hey, the music's good and the beaches are close by, not that I've ever dipped a toe in these.I somehow missed that reorientation in your room. So much happened in that house of yours along time that I lost track, it seems. I'll try to get my bearings again.
Yeah well, thanks. That larger TV is going to be a pain, I can almost feel it. I am optimistic, really so. The real issue is spending time on new tweaks at a time when I'd rather be listening to music. Problem is, this is also the best time to tackle this and other "opportunities". I did put it back together this evening. And minutes ago, the friends postponed the trip! So, I'll now go listen for a while. Got a new DVD of an opera that I just saw live last week (different performers) and I am curious about something. (Coffee-maker is now primed and ready for the heavy espressos I'll need. :)
Oh, I'd love to be able to use a projector! I'll just have to envy you, for one of those can't be used here and still have the Maggies. At times, there is a friend's 130" projected image in his home theater, not that I really crave sitting in those fancy and hard, leather chairs. Me and the lady of the house cuddle up just perfectly in our cheap cushions sofa.
You know -- now about that PC-- you may want to consider de-tuning that computer as much as you can afford to. Each person has a different set of audio goals so, this is not gospel. Years ago I found that turning off everything I could in BIOS (including CPU fan controls) and in the Windows registry is really worth it. The list of optimizations can be very long. In my case, the Audio PC is a "stick-shift WinXP". It's so devoid of frills that I can run it's single active core at 800mhz, though I often keep it higher. It is part of the reason I can listen for tens of hours in a row. Check out our PC Asylum...hmm, if you thought we were odd in this corner of the Asylum...
Edits: 02/17/17
Yeah, it's true, my place has been like a soap opera. At least it's straightened out now and down to fine tuning, getting the video set up again, etc. It's actually sounding pretty great as it is even though there are some things horribly wrong with my setup, e.g., the left hand woofer panels being closer than the right ones and almost on top of the left mid-tweet panel. In fact I'm kind of puzzled that it sounds as good as it does -- it's almost frustrating because I have all the stuff to improve it -- Neo 8's, Mini DSP, new HTPC, acoustical treatment, etc. -- but it's sounding so good as it is that part of me is saying I'm nuts to even try.
Don't tell anyone but you can do pretty amazingly well with a tiny, lopsided room, a used A 21, and 30 year old Tympanis!
Are you sure you can't fit a projector? I forget how much space you have between your speakers but I had a 114" screen between my MMG's -- that was the largest image I could get with the throw length I had (now you can get short-throw projectors). IVA's should be no different, I'll have the mid-tweet panels about where the MMG's were. It won't work for theatrical seating because the speakers block the side view but with it just being you and your wife I don't think sight lines would be a problem as long as you used the speakers tweeters in.
Old photo that shows the arrangement (and reminds me of just how badly it needed those renovations):
I made the screen out of an aluminum frame and mounted it on a rail so that it slid in front of the window when I wanted to use the projector. Total cost something like $40.
That's the evil radiator I'm talking about, BTW, I want to swing it around to the wall behind the left hand speaker but it's harder to move that radiator now since we had them build a plumbing chase to hide the steam pipe -- you can see it in this shot (I was experimenting with Rooze):
Which makes things difficult because the joint is inside the chase -- the plumber thinks he might be able to uncouple it from the outside but it might require some demolition and it certainly isn't something I plan to take on myself. So I'm stuck doing this:
Or as I have them now having the left woofer panel against the left wall in front of the radiator.
Anyway, if you remember that the screen comes to the right of the window on the front wall you can see that there's plenty of room for a projected image while maintaining an equilateral triangle.
Now the PC issue is something that's been running through my mind. I have been thinking of a dedicated HTPC -- underclocked processor, stripped down, etc. The reason I didn't go that way was that I need to use it for theater as well as audio, which requires more power, and I'd gotten in the habit of surfing and doing work on the projector - decadent, I know, but delightfully easy on the eyes. So I wanted to use my main machine that way. But I've been thinking in the last few days that maybe I should put an underclocked, quiet machine it he living room and the more powerful one in the office, and then if I want to work in the living room I can just use remote desktop. But that in turn means getting more stuff which means I have to do the research for it which means more time!
Well now, that's far "more better" than I remember! It also is looking more polished than before...the speakers, I mean. I don't care much for decor until the sound gets were it should, not that my wife agrees.
Sadly, the projector is a non-starter here because what we have behind the system is a large sliding glass door.
As to the PC, for the relatively low cost that it would be if you did this yourself, please consider building TWO computers. One, a full-fledged HTPC. The other an optimized Music-PC. I bit the bullet and did this years ago and could not be happier. If my MMG's can tell the difference in SQ, imagine what those babies of yours would say!
[Now, back to cleaning. I just made an explosively messy mess by accidentally dropping a heavy Craftsman tape measure on a fine glass table. I was about to measure and cut some of the pink stuff to simulate the upcoming larger TV. Yes, I am in a bit of trouble. :( ]
LOL, yeah. The speakers are actually far from finished since they still have some delam and the original midranges. I'll get new socks once I've done experimenting, or maybe I should use velcro and just cover the front so they're easy to repair? Neos will go in when I've repaired the delam and laid in some more channels of amplification.
I'm really curious about the Benchmark AHB2 -- do you know anyone who's heard it? At 100 watts/channel it's nicely sized for the Neo 8's with their 93 dB efficiency, and I'm intrigued by their use of a feedforward topology which is something I've been wondering about since it was mentioned in the early papers on TIM (Otala's?) back in the 70's. I assume without having read about it that they've relied mostly on the feedforward to linearize the devices and reduce crossover distortion and then used feedback to clean up the residual. Much more practical than running Class A, I've been looking at the idle draw of the x250 and the xa30.5 and it's pretty scary. OTOH, there's what looks like a nice x250 for sale in New York though with the way my back's been behaving lately I'm not sure I should get a 100 pound amp!
What about a retractable screen mounted over your door? That's what I'd put in here if it weren't for the cost.
The idea of a dedicated music PC is intriguing, but how would it work? Given that both the music PC and the HTPC would be feeding the same jizz. I'd have to switch between them and I'd also have two computers in the listening room which would add to noise. Since I'd presumably be running JRiver anyway would it really make a difference? I use JRiver to play video files. So I could have a dedicated quiet HTPC in the living room just for media, and then remote desktop to the office computer if I wanted to do something else. Assuming the new build is as quiet as I hope to make it.
As to the table, all I can say is "ah feel your pain"!
Unfortunately, I have not yet heard a Benchmark AHB2 but Benchmark are not prone to disappoint. Curiously, a neighbor wanted to buy one last year but got scared by the wild price swings on the used market. By the time he told me, a Krell had made it to his home. I would have told him to consider that many folks expect too many miracles from 100 honest watts. Thus, they may be selling short. It's just my speculation, of course, but I wish he had studied this more fully first.I am with you on the current draw (plus the heat) of class A amps. Part-time class A works for me. There's still much heat. I am thinking that perhaps I can DIY a switch for Normal/Hi bias, like the JC1 has...probably not as easy as I want to believe.
Yes, the retractable screen came to mind here at one point. However, the issue of room width still impedes. I can't set the MMG's close to the walls. Even if it sounded right, there is a bedroom door right next to one of them.
About the PC's: the 2 computers here share a common input switch, in a manner of speaking. There are 4 switch inputs:
1. Denon receiver's line output for front speakers (the receiver only handles 2 surround speakers [I use no center & no subwoofer]. The Denon provides all the digital decoding functions for inputs from Cable TV, any players's functions, AND the HTPC's on-board audio (and video when needed though it usually goes directly to the TV).
2. The HTPC has a 2nd audio device, a USB DAC. For stereo music it is better than the motherboard's (but this mobo has a really good audio chipset).
3. belongs to the analog stereo outputs of a BRay/SACD player.
4. This fourth input -- nominally -- belongs to the output of the Music-PC's USB DAC.On the fourth input I say "nominally" but this is a long story. For now, I 'll add that the so-called switch if not only so, but also a DIY hybrid/passive preamp. However, when I turn it off, input "4" bypasses everything. In this manner, the Music-PC then depends on the volume control of its USB DAC. This DAC outputs class A. So, turning off the preamp creates a pure line, class A, to the PLLXO and then the power amps. (BTW, that same line is Y-split and also goes to the woofers' filter/pre.)
By and large, the functions in my DIY switch/pre could be easily done with commercial units. For example, had something like the Schitt Saga been available then, for its price and quality, I would have used it. It's key contribution is in allowing the option for clean analog stereo thoughput to the amps, and/or for the stereo portion of a multi-channel signal.
As for multi-channel and video processing, you could decide to use no receiver at all. The HTPC can replicate many of its functions, certainly the most needed. The beauty over here, is that the HTPC can be turned off while the Music-PC is being used for stereo music. (Yet, this is seldom done, given its multimedia convenience, which the Music-PC lacks. In fact, I am replying to you via the HTPC, though right now I am operating it remotely from elsewhere in the apartment. My wife decided to listen to something on the Music-PC.)
Luckily, I was able to add stereo woofers which -- by fortune, and unexpectedly -- can handle movies just fine also. However, the goal was to make them "music-woofers" first and foremost. So, on this they do far better than "fine". Even so, I am able to keep them off at will, leaving the Maggies to do their work alone most of the time.
Edits: 02/19/17
I noticed those price swings. Unfortunately, it's moot right now, as there are no used ones for sale -- they don't seem to come up very often. That 100 watt limit may have something to do with it, as they appear to be the opposite of tube watts -- when the thing runs out of steam, the harmonic distortion soars into the stratosphere. It would likely work with the 93 dB efficient Neo 8's, though, that's 113 dB at the listening seat (and actually a few dB more since it would be a 4 ohm load).
I think a DIY bias switch is a good idea. Not exactly that complex. I wonder why there haven't been more variable bias designs? I'm seeing more Class H.
One possibility would be an acoustically transparent screen that lowered in *front* of the MMG's when you were watching -- you could use a short throw projector if you had to. But I'm not sure if someone makes an acoustically transparent motorized screen, particularly a reasonably priced one.
That sounds like quite an elaborate switching setup! I'm not going analog but rather SPDIF out to the Mini DSP. So I'd have to switch the SPDIF. And god knows what happens when I add surround, which, however, I'm very far from doing -- hard to think of something affordable that wouldn't degrade the performance of the mains. One possibility is to repurpose the Tympani mids for surrounds and then add new ribbons. But, as I said, far in the future -- I have a lot of work still to do on the two-channel system, including experimenting with split woofers.
I came across NuPrime amps, which are offshoots from NuForce and have copied the basic architecture from Devialet but took the class A bit further and went linear with the power supply. Power does not double with lower impedance. As with the NuForce designs, transient dynamic output gives you a generous 3db to give "startling" dynamics, if it is anything like the Ref 8b I have..
Unfortunately, can't contribute to the HTPC and screen discussion as my music PCs are cast off laptops.
As to preamps for switching cleanly and for gain, I find them necessary rather than an option. I would suggest a DIY Bruce Herran non NFB design. You can put on as many inputs as you like. These are far more costly than the lazy tubes on the Schiit models. Even the Freya.
That's interesting. How does it sound? A very wide variety of amplifiers on that website, with varying input stages, power supplies, and bridges. But didn't see much on Hi Fi Shark.
My switching options are complicated by the fact that I'll be using the Mini DSP, which has an SPDIF input. So basically I'd need an SPDIF switcher for that option. But I don't think I'll be going with more than one PC now, I just want to get back up and running -- I've been using my Chromebook as a temporary source while I work on the computer. Which I should have done last night, but ended up experimenting with speaker position instead -- moved the left bass panels back in line with the right ones and used a piece of styrofoam to plug the radiator gap, then was playing with bass panel angles to tame the second reflection off the bass panels and wall. This had the effet of opening up the soundstage on the left, which has been a chronic problem.
There is a ST 10 review from Steven Stone which is very favorable and suggests that it is far smoother and images better than any other class D amp and competitive with price no object designs. He did note that it clips rather harshly, which it should not be doing at the mid/tweeter load . The company is still new so there is little on the used market and the late 2015 review from TAS is pretty much it.
Thanks -- I did see a few used ones, nothing available now but for $1150 vs. $1600 new it really doesn't matter, I'd just assume get a new one if I go that way. It's certainly intriguing.
I just checked a few places and, to my surprise, Amazon has a few used for good prices. But, yeah, now I see the spread. Hmmm, check thoroughly.LOL, your are making me walk this projector thing all over again. At the time we put my friend's system together, I got curious about the acoustically transparent screen possibility. I then told my wife, who provided a quick reality check. Something like, "we are going to be seated too close, I'd rather you took me to the IMAX in Ft. Lauderdale and then to dinner more often." I dropped the whole subject...I hate parking at downtowns.
Edits: 02/20/17
Do you mean the $450 ones on Amazon? I saw those but decided they fall into the "too good to be true" category and were a scam. Sure enough, the next day, they were back, identical price, but three different vendor names, each one a new seller with no feedback at all. Otherwise, judging by Hi Fi Shark, used prices seem to go between $1500 or so and maybe $2200($3000 new).
So how far away would you be from the screen? My room is only 13' deep, and the 114" screen size was great. I just went upstairs and measured, and I would have been sitting 10' or 11' back from it. I dug these out, I think they give a pretty good idea of what the screen size feels like from the captain's chair:
I was actually fine sitting closer and sometimes I'd move the chair up, particularly with 1.85 or 2.35 wide screen material that got letterboxed. Of course if you have to sit closer you can also reduce the screen size commensurately (and the throw length will probably do that for you anyway if you have a limited range zoom lens), but too much and you lose the "life size" effect that makes the projector so much more engaging than a 55" LCD.
Well, Josh, there you have it. No sooner had I begun to touch on the subject again this evening than she stomped her foot and squashed it. Clearly, I misjudged how much she really likes the view. Of both, a "normal" living room and of the park, which can be seen across the canal. I guess the next step is to move to a larger place.
I do love the cozy look in that home theater setup that you had, and plan to rebuild.
Nurtz! Actually, I can understand your wife's not wanting to lose the view, that's why I made a moveable screen rather than a fixed one -- I didn't want to lose that window. And since I don't watch TV during the day or look out the window at night, it works out pretty well. Maybe you could sell your wife on a retractable screen? Since it disappears when you aren't watching it, it's actually less intrusive than a TV, particularly if you can build the screen into something. But that's serious watching, if you just have the TV on in the background during the day I can see that you might want the view as well.
Josh, yes. The screen would have to be down all the time, since she spends many of her free hours watching. That's how I get all these subscriptions and purchases to QVC, HSN, etc. One look at my morning inbox spam would give folks the wrong impression. (Though, at my age, I probably should start using that Bondo-like stuff they sell for my face, LOL).
She really likes that deep view behind the TV, even at night when all we can see are park's tall floodlights. I should have remembered that we have a similar TV in the bedroom and she still prefers the main one.
Now, since she does, I am arguing that her view will be obstructed by too large a new TV, which also risks ruining my sound system. The argument is partially working...from 70" down to 65". I am hoping for like 55", for audio reasons, but preparing for the worst.
Ouch, yeah, that is a conundrum.
It's also true that projectors aren't the best way to watch TV during the day when the lights are up. They're OK particularly if you use a high gain screen but still a bit washed out.
So how's this for a compromise? Keep your current TV for daytime viewing, but install a retracting screen and projector as well. That way you best preserve the view and the sound and can use the projector when watching seriously, e.g., a movie in the evening.
I suspect that once your wife sees what it's like to watch on a large screen she'll change her opinion, it really is a different experience from watching on a 65" screen.
Josh, I'm just about to leave for work. LOL, are you selling this stuff? Tough sell because she's not dying for such a thing. We already watch some movies and sports at my friend's place every now and then; she comes along for social reasons, not the huge screen. Besides, she is perfectly happy to view some movies on her iThings. That darn iPad is so bright and clear that all she seems to want is that brightness and sharpness on a much larger screen.
I've no practical options until we move elsewhere...by which time projection will be better & cheaper, I am sure. For now, I just have to protect my audio system's virtues.
I don't know what it is about women -- they won't tolerate a 3" piece of equipment in the living room, but they're content to watch movies on a 4" phone!
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