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In Reply to: RE: Want to biamp T1D's is minidsp ok? posted by OldTimer on February 11, 2017 at 12:41:37
Yes, you certainly can use a 2x4 to actively biamp some T-1Ds (I've just set this up for a mate). But, yes, there's a learning curve involved with the miniDSP software and with REW.IMO, the Hd version is worth getting (I think it gives you some extra filter features) - but ask on the miniDSP Forum. 'Davey' here will be also able to advise you.
The REW software is completely separate to the miniDSP unit (for which you have to buy the 'plug-in' - the software) but is extremely useful. But, with REW, you have to buy a calibrated mic and an external sound card/processor. The REW home page has recommendations.
As Satie said, you can biamp with a PLLXO but I suggest this is only feasible if all 4 of your amp channels have the same gain. And you don't get the same facilities as a miniDSP offers.
With miniDSP you can:
* adjust for different amp gains
* tailor a tweeter attenuation to suit your ears, and
* introduce PEQs to cope with room modes.My system in vinyl based and I don't believe I have 'lost' anything in switching from analogue active XOs. On the contrary, I have gained a lot. :-))
Andy
Edits: 02/12/17Follow Ups:
Hi Andy! For years I've been using my large calibrated mics, an Emu 0404 USB unit and REW to great effect. However, it was frustrating that other folks could not see justification for such expense and effort. A pity, really, but understandable.
Then, a few years ago I was delighted to find the item linked below, which also works with REW in regular PC's and laptops, and even with their integrated sound cards. With this tiny mic, I've been able to help a few friends to start taking measurements rather well. I was surprised to find them consistently good compared to more expensive mics.
So, it's not just for the devices mentioned in its description, and for less than US$20 it can do a terrific job.
Good to hear from you.
Well, the guy who made my subs and initially programmed my miniDSP 10x10Hd recommended I get the Dayton UMM-6. Seems to work well (but a lot more money!)! :-))
But rather than using the PC's integrated sound card, I bought a Steinberg UR242.
It is fascinating to tweak the miniDSP PEQ settings ... and then get a graph showing what this change has done to the overall FR.
Andy
I am also using a UMM-6 from Dayton. I think it cost $50 when I bought it but the price has climbed to $80. I also use a Behringer UCA-222 for the sound card which is now about $30. So the necessary tools are not that expensive. To put it in perspective I have a WallyTractor for my vinyl setup that now costs ~$150 and a HI-FI News test record (now $50) as well as a digital scale (~$10). And then there is the multimeter ($50). They're all tools of the trade for serious "audiophiles".
I married the perfect woman. The downside is everything that goes wrong is my fault.
Hi gang! Neo, that UMM-6 has turned out to be a reliable unit here, and Dayton's factory calibration figures are very good. One of my 2 Behringer mics bought the farm on a carpet drop. Thus, the other Behringer, ordered with the tighter calibration, is only brought out if in doubt about something. Day-to-day, the sturdier Dayton's calibration produces the same curves at up to 12db/octave, and still usefully similar at 24 & 48.
Wow, that Behringer UCA-222 looks like a VERY attractive proposition for $30. I was not aware of it. I've also found that many of the latest built-in sound "cards" in recent motherboards can do a terrific job on most practical measuring tasks.
I just hope that more folks keep getting the message that measuring SPL can be quite rewarding, not really hard and rather cheap, these days.
I actually have the UAC-202 which, I believe is the same as the 222 except for color. Here is a nice review.
I married the perfect woman. The downside is everything that goes wrong is my fault.
The Behringer UCA-202 suffers from bad channel separation in the bass. It can upset measurements. A friend of mine modified an UCA-202 in 2010 for better frequency response (lower output impedance and lower fu), it did not improve the channel separation.
Didn't know that, thanks. Actually when I do measurements I do one channel at a time and then have the REW average the responses. I typically use the DAC (Schiit Modi Uber) rather than the UAC-202, which I bought several years ago when I did not have a DAC. The main purpose of the UAC-202 now is as an ADC when I digitalize vinyl which is not that often.
I married the perfect woman. The downside is everything that goes wrong is my fault.
Those Behringer units have a number of little issues/idiosyncrasies. :)
As an example.....one that might catch you in a testing situation is the multiplexed outputs. The left and right channels have a 25uS timing difference between them.
However, you can work around most issues with these units. The price makes it very attractive.
Dave.
miniDSP UMIK-1 with its built-in soundcard is very convenient. Calibrated too.
Hey Roger, that UMIK-1 is yet another neat mic. I have not tried it myself but a friend swears by it. When his E-mu card died last year, he was left with a Behringer mic and no proper interface. The UMIK came to the rescue by going straight to USB. (He had issues at first until he realized that his old version of REW had been updated to better work with the UMIK.)
Where might i find this minidsp forum nothing comes up in the search for it.
BTW almost all of my listening is lp's, some from a Nak cassette deck. I am looking for a way to "see" what my room is doing... Thanks.....
May He Who Watches Over Us All, Watch Over You And Yours.
Edits: 02/12/17
Here you are, OT: https://www.minidsp.com/forum/support
All my serious listening is also vinyl. :-))
The miniDSP can be used in 2 modes:
1. to enable you to modify what your room is doing (which is very valuable!)
2. and additionally, in place of the passive XO in your speakers.
I am using #2; if you don't want to turn your speakers into active then you just do #1.
The miniDSP unit enables you to change what the room is doing ... however, to "see" what your room is doing, you need:
* a calibrated mic
* an external sound card
* and REW (Room Equalisation Wizard).
Andy
@andy
Here you are, OT: https://www.minidsp.com/forum/support
sorry was looking all over this site(guess the pain meds are working to well).All my serious listening is also vinyl. :-))
The miniDSP can be used in 2 modes:
1. to enable you to modify what your room is doing (which is very valuable!)
2. and additionally, in place of the passive XO in your speakers.Can it do both at the same time? I want to "see" my room, maybe correct it but mostly want to biamp T1D's. and which version the .9V or the 2V?
May He Who Watches Over Us All, Watch Over You And Yours.
Edits: 02/14/17
You said: " I want to 'see' my room, maybe correct it but mostly want to biamp T-1Ds ".
Perhaps I can explain it like this:
* the miniDSP 2x4 or the new 2x4Hd (which I suggest is the one to buy) will enable you to set up the digital equivalent of your current T-1D passive filters. So you can actively biamp.
* but the miniDSP unit itself is the hardware ... it runs on software. This is the 'Plug-in' which you need to pay $10 for and download to your computer ... and then get to grips with how to drive it. (You can get help here ... or on the miniDSP Forum.)
* With the miniDSP in circuit, your signal chain runs thus:
- vinyl source (or preamp output)
- to analogue input of the miniDSP
- to power amps
- to T-1Ds, with their passive XOs removed (and the back-plate terminal connections re-arranged).
* This gives you the XO.
* But to 'read' the room - which enables you to change the settings in the miniDSP unit, to correct room issues - you need some additional items:
- a calibrated mic (like the miniDSP one)
- the REW (Room Equalisation Wizard) software; this is a free download
- plus an external USB soundcard - REW has recommendations.
* And you have to get to grips with the REW software.
You asked: " Which version - the .9V or the 2V? ".
I believe this can be set with a dip switch inside the miniDSP box. I haven't played with this because the output of my preamp is <0.9v - so I have left this parameter at the default setting.
Good luck,
Andy
Thanks to all for your help and comments.....
May He Who Watches Over Us All, Watch Over You And Yours.
"The miniDSP unit enables you to change what the room is doing ... "
Well, not really. Electronic equalization doesn't change the room, but rather alters the speaker response. The whole concept of "room correction" is a misnomer, in my opinion, and altering a speakers response so it measures 'better' at a single location at the expense of most other locations is convoluted justification for the process.
The miniDSP (and other equalization and crossover devices) are primarily for optimization of the speaker design itself. This optimization would be valid regardless of the room the speaker was used in.
The DIRAC-processing units have a particular/narrow usage, but unfortunately have an extremely elevated price owing to the licensing fees.
Dave.
It is very easy to include a level pot in the PLLXO for both high pass and low pass. In the high pass the pot goes before the filter, and in the low pass the pot goes after the filter. So no need to have matched gains for high and low amps. The low cost Schiit passive vol. control can be used for this purpose (you need two units) with the high pass filter after the output of the first unit and the low pass filter before the input of the second.
If you are enterprising and want a neat finish you can solder the filters inside the nice little boxes. The only downside is that you can't use larger foil caps. But you usually don't need high enough values to where they won't fit.
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