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When I close my eyes I "see" the sound from beyond the walls; about 2.5 feet outside the tweeters. Cool stuff! when I open them then of course I see the wall and the sound seems to emanate from the wall. This is without inverse polarity recording trickeries, such as Amused to death where the soundstage is essentially 360 degrees around your head.
Source material: Alan Parsons: I Robot. Pretty damn good production on this disc.
Curious to know what are others go-to recordings for soundstage width?
Follow Ups:
"Curious to know what are others go-to recordings for soundstage width?"
I have Norah Jones' debut CD and while it has many of the qualities contributors to this thread mentioned, I don't have access to (m)any of the other suggested recordings. I do own Varese Sarabande's CD release of Casino Royale and while most of its tracks excel in this apparent soundstage phenomenon, the 'standout' cut' IMO (pun intended) is Dusty Sprinfield's "The Look of Love". In my set-up she sounds front/center, as if I were in a club, seated fairly close to her. Very highly recommended!
Norman, Dusty's track sounds here just like you said. She is front & center. In here, that position is comparable to the best of Norah's voice projection - in "Cold Cold Heart" from the CD just discussed. (Interestingly, as in the latter, Dusty's "The Look of Love" has the bass mixed in rather close to center, behind her voice. hmm...)They may or may not have remastered the track for the box collection that I have but it also has an ample soundstage behind her. It extends from well "inside" the room to my left, to well into my neighbor's apartment of the right. The scant instrumentation is well spread. Given the recording's age, it does not surprise me that this rear imaging is not as "beefy" or stable as in the Norah Jones disk.
That said, it does have some good attributes, and even superior ones. There's some strings and a center-hit cymbal playing, both with rather surprisingly extended and sweet harmonics. In all of Norah's CD, there's nothing as extended into the treble harmonics, at least here. (I do suspect that this was deliberate in Norah's mix. And, of course, the treble may have been "mastered up" in the version of "The Look of Love" that I have.)
Curiously, the sax on the right side is initially kind of shy but, oh boy, it later reenters delightfully strong and textured at the very end. If only my neighbor could hear what just intruded so musically-reedy into his apartment!
Edits: 02/16/17
JBen, I'm happy that you enjoyed Dusty and ensemble performing 'The Look of Love'. It's interesting that although our Maggies and listening rooms obviously differ, we both come up with essentially the same conclusions as to Dusty's placement, as well as the ensemble. Both soundstage and soundfield we hear are remarkably identical!
Well, that does not usually happen by accident. Which means that you did the due diligence and then followed up! Now, if this included your T-IV plus your 3.6R playing together, we here have far more extra learning to do than we thought. (And it is not just how to move those toys easily, LOL!)
Norman, I just checked the home server remotely and found the song but not the album. In my case, it is part of the "Burt Bacharach Magic Moments box set". Hopefully, they did not alter things in the transfer. I'll try to take a listen when I get home this evening and let you know.
Incidentally, that box set also has the Burt Bacharach and Elvis Costello "Who Are These People" track. This one was made part of my "core test music selection" years ago. Almost from the first bars, it leaves no doubt that some Maggies can, indeed, punch quite dynamically with no need for a woofer.
Everything I love about planars is in this thread. Soundstage and imaging is my bag and for me - I had a hard time determining what I liked as ...I liked it all!! At one point I had a 5.1 system - but where is the fun there? A voice comes from the center. No s**t... there is a speaker there!! Dumped that and went to planars. Just a kick I get when things come from spaces without a speaker. and yes the amused to death album is freaky. Why wouldn't they record everything this way? I don't see the downside?
Also - the Norah jones albums - in particular Come Away With Me and Not Too Late are great recordings on any media. I love the first but I actually think Not Too Late is a better recording. Listen to Sinking Soon off of that album.
Yup I agree Timm, this is a better recording. Okay I like it more now :)
Her voice is incredible; close-miked and every breath sounds so realistic. No sibilance whatsoever.
And we have vertical soundstage: last track "Not too late" the piano starts 3-4 feet off the ground, and her voice starts definitely above that; about 5 feet high dead centre. Pretty cool! I am debating whether she gets beyond the plane of the speakers.... she is right at it I think.
Something that bugs me though, and I am sorry to point this out to those who haven't noticed, because now you will, but I find it odd that the lower registers of the piano are to the left and the high keys to the right, so it is as if we are behind her, but when she sings of course we are in front of her, so she must do the exorcist spin the head thing and then its ruined! Why do they record like that????
Yes as good as the first recording is in my opinion... the Not Too Late disk I think is a bit better. I'd say a little clearer with a bit better top end. But it doesn't lose that close feel - if that makes any sense.
So my speakers pretty much disappear. They are about 11' apart inside to inside as I had mentioned - but my seated position is only 9' from the centerline. So the piano sits in the middle of a very wide stage. I do hear the slight leanings of the lower registers on the left but it is not really noticeable since it still emanates from the center stage.
i'll give it a listen tonight.... haha.... I have to check it out...... I have ML Odysseys... and I have them spread about 11' inside to inside... so I get a huge center stage.... but - this wouldn't bother me... so I am cool with it.. :) .... but yah - you are right if I really had to think about it.... she certainly would have to be turning around.....
LOL, see if you can stand behind a player while the grand piano is open. Or just play a glissando up and down on the white keys. That's just swiping the full white scale with a finder. That ample ear-ear spread you hear between the highest and lowest notes is what some engineers try to capture, not always successfully or even properly. Yet, it is just one of several valid perspectives (the pianist's :).
The truth is that the piano is a tough cookie to record properly (and more so when in combination with other instruments in a small ensemble).
There all kinds of approaches and techniques. The pianos also vary themselves, and then there is their response when open, closed, partially opened, etc. They also react to walls that are close by vs open spaces. Experienced engineers also know their distinct personalities and attempt to capture it. So, for example, they may distinguish between different Steinways, Yamahas, Bösendorfers, etc and tweak microphone placements, and even the piano's location accordingly.
Maggies can do some wonderful presentations of pianos captured in various ways. Now, if the engineer aimed for regular and small speakers...oops! Maggies tend to present some piano recordings larger than they intended. It can be delightful but it can also be disconcerting. In most cases I like what I hear.
I bought this when it came out; listened to it several times but was hugely disappointed. At least compared to the first album. If I remember correctly her and the band wrote the tracks on the second instead of the first album which got alot of other people rich via the royalties. I have not listened to it in years; I will give it a go again!
Big grin! Very very happy for you.
Roger Waters amused to death te soundstage will go 10 ft further on certain tracks
yes, mentioned in the first post: it uses Q sound technology which reverses polarity tricks to essentially give surround sound with stereo speakers.
So is it 10 feet left of the speakers or directly beside you? One could interpret this to be the same. For me, as I sit 6 feet in front of the speaker plane, sounds are 6 feet in front of the speakers on either side of my head. As well as left and right of the speakers. I think some appear to come from behind my head too, I will have to listen again to verify.
those are cool to come across, but for me it would be even better having a deep, deep depth of field which extends far beyond the front wall (specifically with orchestra recordings). I've heard this before in recordings a few times-and I'm talking 3-4 layers deep, and elevated as a orchestra should be. Ahhh but I digress.... hell I'd be happy with simply a consistent 1/3rd in front, 2/3's behind presentation with the panels. On the down side, it seems hard for Maggies to 'break the plane' meaning the image (ie vocalist) extend 2-3 feet outward/forward of the panels.
Now THAT would be exciting.Not saying this never occurs, more like the 'unicorn' of Maggies.
Edits: 01/30/17 01/30/17 01/30/17 01/31/17
LOL, you know what, a Unicorn does exist! I've seen it, and so have some guests at home. Ironically, I had more frontal projection years ago than nowadays. To be sure, by this I mean "objects/voices perceived almost solid" standing in front of the plane of the Maggies. (I usually do get surround sound from the sides, behind and even the ceiling...but it is "phantom"...it vanishes if you try to look at it. OTOH, I often get 3D solidity and layering in the huge, deep wall-busting soundstage behind the plane .)
My Unicorn, however, may depend on certain recording techniques interacting in certain room conditions, usually by accident. Let me give an example.
The piece "A Weekend in the Country" from a CD remix of the musical "A Little Night Music" used to bring the Unicorn out in my room strongly. The left MMG projected a singer out over a foot from it. It did become shorter in perceived stature but the singer's voice was otherwise pretty solid. So was another singer, who walks into the stage later and keeps walking further out 3D-projecting close to the center. This one retained her stature all along.
Importantly, most visitors, when asked, could point to the very same locations outside and front of the plane MMGs.
At the very least, two combined factors helped the Unicorn. One was the room's dissimilar corners. The other was a deliberate remixing goal. In order to better represent the performers' movements on theater stage, the master tapes were remixed for enhanced spatial representation. At the hands of Maggies, these two factors yielded special effects of their own. Later, by me fixing the corners, most projection stopped. As a result, the true intent of the remix flows through.
So, these days visitors can still do the same precise pointin. But everything is now in a larger stage behind the plane of the Maggies. The Unicorn does not die. For the most, it simply gains a huge deep field on which to roam while fenced behind the wide plane of the Maggies. And, yes, the darn Unicorn does stick its head out every now and then!
to allow those unicorns to break the plane and run free!I heard the Wilson Alexandrias perform this magic once. The singer was about 6 feet forward of the speakers while the band was behind her in a perfect 3D soundstage. It was a pretty amazing presentation but I couldn't shake the feeling of the image appearing 'ghostly' almost 'cartoonish'; not what I'd expect from a $200K speaker. In all fairness this was a limited listening experience at a dealer.
The closest I get is a nose 'crossing the line'. But this isn't a knock on Maggies, what goes on behind the panels is quite spectacular and I also know most recordings aren't made with Maggies in mind.
I bet this could be accomplished in a three-way Maggie setup with a CCR in a careful, 'forward' configuration, although the source would also have to accommodate such-
Edits: 01/31/17
"I also know most recordings aren't made with Maggies in mind."
Google *cat stevens magneplanar speakers*.
(Even HP chimes in on this subject.)
Of course listeners will hear what he wanted them to hear. Doesn't make it right or wrong.
Been thinking about this "nose across the line" or is it a unicorn horn?
One of the most forward vocals I can listened to lately is Norah Jones debut album. Me thinks I am getting more than a nose in front of the plane. With track 3: Cold cold heart I would surmise at least half of her face is beyond the plane; maybe back to her ears? I am trying to look for the whole head but I don't hink I find it: Anybody else getting more?
Oddly on the title track Come away with me she is a little further back, perhaps a foot behind the plane. I have not adjusted the toe in at all to magnify the forwardness of the soundstage; I am scared to touch the speakers as everything is sounding so right lately. :0
Watts,
It's good to know that you have a nice set up that is giving you such fine results.Can you describe your speaker positions & room treatments?
Well, without measuring precisely right now; speakers are 52" from front wall, 16" from side walls, tweeters on the outside, and focused about 2' behind my head, which is 8' from the speaker plane and about 7' from the back wall.
Back wall has a thick wool carpet, and a couple of 2" thick 2' x 4' absorption panels in the corners.
Front wall; see the picture in the tube traps thread you started :)
I imagine with a little more diffusion/absorption on the side walls this will improve: right now I have racks of cd's as diffusors.
I looked back at your pictures in the Tube Bass Trap thread.Your results speak to the effectiveness of your room treatments & placement.
Setup, Maggies are about 1/3 out (6 ft) from the front wall, tweeters in. My gear is listed in my profile, room treatment is a work in progress. I can go into more detail later when I get home from work.
I started out with an essentially bare room that was also pretty echo'y, so I used a couple of spare throw rugs I had stored away on the side walls to tame reflections. My wife bought an additional 8x12' rug for the center floor. I use a runner carpet on the front wall behind the left speaker but have been meaning to take it down since I think it may be 'robbing' me of pinpoint imaging.I know this setup is hardly scientific but I wanted the room to be 'family friendly' since it has the only TV in the house (other than the bedroom) there. But now that the house is essentially empty (all the kids are away at college) I figure the time has now come to tap it's potential. There are some challenges, ie a very glassy entertainment center and dead smack in the center a 55" tv. Yet despite the glass I've never regarded the sound to be 'glaring'. I just recently began replacing all my cabling with DIY cables a'la Jon Risch's (post a few paragraphs below this thread). The initial results are far beyond my expectations and as they burn in -will only get better. I use three room lenses (original Ardent) I bought from an estate sale. The owner was a serious audiophile who had just passed away. They help tremendously with imaging.
So basically that's it. I'm waiting on my next batch of Cardas RCAs, and belden cable to arrive to complete the interconnects aspect, next will be DIY speaker cabling although I'm not sure which variety of DIY I'll use as of yet. In addition to saving cost, I find DIY very satisfying and rewarding to the point where I personally know the sound originating from my system is a result of my own efforts.
Hope this answered your question, now I gotta get back to the music!
Edits: 01/31/17
I am really curious about how damaging the center console is to your imaging. If you are curious too, try this experiment if you happen to have a spare door or large board somewhere. Set it up at the center between the speakers - vertically and parallel to, and a couple of inches ahead of the plane of the tweeters - dead vertical. That should block some of the most suspect early reflections from the console and give you some idea of what good diffusion or absorption will do for your imaging.
Actually, there has been a change: picture to come....
I've got the weekend pretty much set aside for the room (didn't have time last weekend). 8 more Cardas RCAs are arriving Friday which will round out the final four interconnects. Next project will be speaker cables although there aren't many choices available other than Jon Risch and Chris VenHaus.
Regarding the TV shelf I looked at a few options including building a removable diffuser such as:
However such an endeavor would seem impractical due to it's excessive weight. This led me to thinking about alternate materials other than solid wood. One material being foam blocks, the kind you'd find at a hobby store or even Walmart. Also those green Styrofoam 'planter blocks'. Only problem for these would be the cost, comparable number of blocks of the foam would equal about ten times the cost of regular 8 foot, 2x2 pieces of wood.
I could very well end up using wood, perhaps mounting the acoustic board on elevated legs and wheels with the ability to roll it out of the way and against a wall when I want to watch TV. We'll see.
The planter blocks are expensive because they are an open cell foam. That makes it an absorber at high frequencies and will attenuate the reflection off of it somewhat. It is only a good material because of the higher density . But styrofoam and PE foam are available at higher densities, at much higher cost, which might reduce their ringing with the characteristic "plasticky" noise that sounds like rustling. But your best bet with styrofoam skyline diffusors is to paint them with a hard setting latex paint.
or swim noodles cut to size :) but it is just not something you want catching fire in your house...
Satie, if what you are suggesting to GL is simply that he experiments with this, I agree. I always encourage (in-room) experimentation.
Now, relative to my room and to other rooms I've observed, the reflective stuff is not too worrisome. At least, not when the system is well balanced, like GL's seems to be. In fact, for maximum soundstage & imaging attributes, I have a reflective surface (60%+ of it door glass directly behind + drywall/wood the rest) behind the Maggies. Notably, however, the corners are truncated (about 18" wide) which makes a significant contribution to imaging/soundstage. (So does the glass reflection, although I would not suggest so much of it in most cases).
GL made a comment that I find interesting. In essence, he seems to suspect the current validity of some absorption he placed early on, which may now be robbing imaging after other changes were made. While I believe that his use of floor absorption will still be useful to him, I would agree to be suspicious of the wall carpets now. In this sense, I would remove them for observation. Then, he could try to truncate the corners experimentally. [In my case, flimsy Styrofoam failed to do the trick...heavier drywall, particle board or plywood did. Perhaps this (see bottom) which I just bought at Home Depot for tests later on, could do without breaking backs, or banks.]
Now, to your other important point -- that of test-placing something flat in the null area between the Maggies. For now, I'll leave out the "technical reasons" for agreeing that it should be tried. I simply wish more people did.
To this day, it is the combination of truncated corners and the flat TV between the Maggies, plus judicious amounts of reflection at the back, which contributes the most to salient imaging features in my room. There are other factors, to be sure. However, after trying the same type of approach in other rooms along the years, similar imaging trends appear with other dipoles and gear.
I'd forgotten about your blocking experiment. Something to try for sure although since I have a projector it can't be a permanent installation for me.
As I indicated, it is something to do in order to evaluate subjectively the effect of the complex surface of the center console on imaging. It is a decidedly difficult solution as a practical treatment unless it is a TV on a rack/cart, which is a large surface you would have in the room anyway.
I currently use a stack of junk (CDs for the most part) on a cart at the center between and ahead of the mid/tweeter to block reflections off the center racks that are too difficult to move around while I am still experimenting with placement for this particular combo of placement and crossover setup. I took the idea from our discussion some years ago about your using a TV to block unwanted early reflections in the central portion of the front wall (also blocks first reflections)
Apropos this discussion, Josh and I were just talking over his preliminary experiments with creating a RFZ (reflection free zone) using reflectors to divert the first reflection point of the backwave away from the listening area, which produced substantial improvement in spatial performance. The practice is common in design of sound control rooms. It is not practical if you don't have a bare wall behind your speakers. So it isn't workable for me. But it might be useful for others who do have a bare wall to contend with. Ultimately, diffusors would take the place of the reflectors for a more uniform diffusion of the backwave.
I have used diverters before to prevent early reflections from the racks . Those are simply boards placed at the side of the inner edge of the speaker at an angle towards the center of the front wall, so that the backwave does not reach the center rack at all.
Just got back from Home Depot with a couple of styrofoam boards for further experiments. Hoping to try them tonight.
Planers are very good at this, especially when you have a good set-up. Some cone driven speakers can do this as well but not all. It's one of the true tests of top loudspeaker systems for me. No 3D, I'm not going to buy them.
Me neither! : -) ) Once heard, it can be addictive.
Edits: 01/31/17
nt
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
Geez; I have never heard of Goldfrapp...thanks.
After Felt Mountain, Goldfrapp still delights critics, but goes more mainstream for several CD's, then somewhat hybrid, and back and forth. Head scratching for some, but quite excellent in sound quality and song writing overall. Something for every mood. Well loved overseas. If you do give Goldfrapp a listen, hope you enjoy the music as well as the sound.
Cheers!
Jonesy
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
Splurged for a CD copy from Amazon during coffee break minutes ago. Though used, for $3.99 shipped via Prime, one can easily afford to be this "adventuresome" :)
Play loud, late at night, no interruptions, lights turned down of course.
Hope you like it.
Cheers!
Jonesy
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
Found the ordered Felt Mountain CD by the door when we arrived home close to midnight on Friday. LOL, this qualified for "late at night" but the audio system was in "TV mode". As such, the woofers were hooked on and the playback would have to be via the HTPC. (The more proper Music-PC would take too much time to boot and warm up the DAC.)
Then, there's the small matter of living in apartment. High volume was out at this hour. Low db's would have to do. Ok, then. quick transfer to the HTPC and then on to a few pieces for the few minutes conceded by my wife as she laughed "boys and toys!"
LOL! Darn this stuff sounds like the bastard child of mutant New Age music and what?, perhaps a lady singer whose name I can't recall right now. Not my usual cup of tea but still, I liked it in its own context. In fact, even within the initial playback contraints, I got some good impressions.
With (boxed) woofers on, the impressive bass was really the first big impression. Most pieces reach below the natural reach of my MMG's and for a sec, I feared I would not be able to enjoy much of anything without the woofers. Then, I remembered that the woofers' power amp was boosted in "TV mode" and figured that all would be fine next day, with no woofers. (My mutant MMG's are modded to, among other things, do better on bass than usual without such aid).
After a few minutes, I promptly settled for "Oompah Radar" and for "Human" as keepers . The former will become a demo feature. The latter, an additional test recording for my Maggies.
That night, the "Oompah Radar" piece seemed to include all of the best imaging, soundfield & soundstage available on the full album. Unfairly aided by the woofers being on, it still already said: "tomorrow you'll SEE me even further out these walls!" I have a few recording that already do it, major surround outside the room, I mean. Yet, this one is among the few that can do a very special trick. It can place not just the surround sound field but also some strong localized bass "inside" my neighbor's apartment, straight out BEHIND my right shoulder in this case. Would my highly modded MMG's -- alone -- do this next day? "Nah", I remember thinking, "they are good but not THAT good."
Then, just past midnight, came "Human". Oh brother, what a scare! I recently reglued some wire segments on my MMG's in preparation for an upcoming session with the 2 Telarc 1812 SACD's I have. At the moderate levels I began listening to "Human", its main synthesized sound effect made it seem like the wires were off again. Knowing my system, logic told me, it is NOT mild slapping or loose wire, it is just the damn soundtrack! I then wondered where the hell had I misplaces my headphones, to confirm it. I only found them today...which left me wondering all night long.
Then came today; I only had 2 hours to continue listening on this Saturday morning. I had left the power amps on overnight. I "rewired" for fully passive> direct, just the MMG's from the 2 power amps fed via USB DAC from the dedicated music PC. This is my usual setup if listening from the PC. (a "flat" bass woofer configuration can be switched on with another stereo power amp, but I left this off like I normally do...too little time to test with them on anyway.) After checking via the headphones, the noise in "Human" was just the same in character. Very well, let's crank the Maggies up.
Alright! The Maggies stayed together through all of "Human" even at max (0db, passive). Sure "Human" is a torture test of sorts, more so at high volume. It is also demostrates what mechanical intermodulation can do in planar speakers. At max volume, some elements get audibly distorted during the worst of the main sound effect. One can actually hear some of them "warble" slightly, including the singer. The top highs get partially hidden and/or lose some sparkle. Amazingly, the whole thing still stays "musical" enough. (Max average volume hit at least 88db, bass peaks passed 105db in the 55hz range. At higher frequencies I saw graphic peaks flash beyond 110db.) I do plan to revisit this piece to measure and record the behaviors.
However, the more musical "Oompa Radar" did not get much measured -- except to verify bass db's. I simply sat back an enjoyed the wholesome, giant soundfield. Even at max volume, the strong bass, now only from the MMG's this time, returned...and remained composed...and invaded my neighbor's apartment. (yay, the woofers were not needed!) The piece projects grandly to all areas outside the room, and still retains more than enough of a credible cohesive soundstage behind the Maggies. This soundfield is also wide beyond all the walls, even behind me. The largely synthesized nature of the mix won't create much of individal 3D imaging but, at the very least, it does layer some of it behind the plane of the Maggies. The singer does keep her composure.
Thanks for this suggestion. I still have to explore more of it in the next few weeks once I have time. However, any joking aside, it has both enjoyable moments and impressively useful mixes. It will be played here, for both reasons.
I'd expect it to be useful to other planar owners, as well (and few CD remain, only used, via Amazon) since none of my test playback levels are really needed to get results.
Yup. It's like wearing headphones while sitting on a subwoofer.
Quite a history on the musicians and producers before Goldfrapp was formed. Quite the combination.
Happy listening!
Jonesy
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
Sounds like you already got your $3 worth :)
I just looked on amazon.ca and they had one for $ 0.39 plus $3.49 shipping! I ordered it.
There you go Watts, you beat me :) Mine was really $3.99 because of the Prime 2-day delivery.Now, about Norah Jones, I read your comment last night. This morning, I went for my weekly long walk at the Swap Shop. This is a huge local kind-of flea market here in South Florida. Figured I'd look around to see if the CD would show up used for sale. Typical dumb me, I failed to observe the title of the CD -- which you did include in your posting. So, I bought the only one I found. For one buck, it was a good risk.
Well, there's something to be said for good ol' dumb luck; it turned out to be the one! I'll let you know where the voice shows up relative to the other tracks in a few days.
Edits: 02/05/17
Regarding images emanating from a plane in front of the speakers, my experience has been that for this effect to be created, tube electronics are pretty much required. But then I've never heard some of the real expensive Pass etc. stuff.
Edits: 02/06/17
Yes, BDP24, that would have been my own impression until 2009. That's because tubes are so good at creating ample soundfields easily (not necessarily defined soundstages or 3D imaging, which they can also do well at times).However, in 2009, a set of "factors" colluded to make my MMG's recreate this phenomena while driven by just a Denon receiver. This forced me to question quite a few things that I had always thought were "a given".
Amusingly for them, in a matter of days I began to ask visitors to point to where they perceived certain elements on the soundstage. The majority of them chose the very same points in 3D space as I perceived them. (The few that did not, actually helped me to understand part of the factors that allow the phenomena to happen.)
Once I was sure that I was not "hearing things", I think I posted something that year about one of the pieces that projected sound. I am at work now but I may be able to find it later.
Edits: 02/06/17 02/06/17
I saw Pink Floyd "Pulse" and Pink Floyd "Is There Anybody Out There" Listed as CDs with Q-Sound.They were both recorded live.Does anybody hve those discs and know how they sound?
I can't speak to those ones, but I hate to admit that I have the Madonna Immaculate collection, and some of the sounds are surround. Doesn't make me want to listen to it again though :(
And Bryan Adams 18 till I die is surprisingly on the list too. I listened to my copy of it and heard no special ambience. It doesn't say anything on the credits to the effect either.
I will also confirm that the thunder sound in Amused to Death does is fact come from behind my head! and the horse with bells (track 8) travels in front of the speaker plane by a few feet.
It was not until Thursday that I could spend some quality time with the Norah Jones CD. The summary of the delightful session:-- Real nice recordings of her voice and the ensemble in an ample enough soundstage (wall-erasing wide) and at times with solid 3D imaging. There is also one outstanding surround-sounding piece (more later).
-- Pretty much always, her voice is solidly centered, endearingly warm and textured, and pretty much forward. However, at no time did it go forward of the plane of my speakers.
-- "Cold Cold Heart", which you perceived as perhaps passing the plane, did not do so in my system. It generally behaved as the rest of the songs in space. That said, this rhythmic song features a very active role by the bass player which is mixed in at the center, right behind Norah's voice. I bet that this can trigger a perceived forward-of-plane perception of her voice, in some system configurations.
-- More to the point, my system is being reconfigured. In its previous config, a few recordings did easily project into that forward-of-the-plane center spot that you perceived Norah in. Off the top of my head, I can only remember Lee Ritenour's guitar always doing so. This was in one of the pieces in the "Amparo" album. In fact, I believe that a strong bass and the robust piano are playing behind it. If you have it, the piece may be called "Joropo Peligroso", if my brain cell is still on (it's 2:30am).
All in all, it actually was a curious evening. While I began with Norah, most of the night was then devoted to Tchaikovsky's first movement of the Concerto No.1 in B-flat minor (played by Igor Zhukov, piano; an oldie but mouth-watering performance.)
This was done for my listening pleasure while also measuring its SPL peaks at full blast volume (0db passive). After a few hours of this very enchanting performance - despite several repetitions - I was also very satisfied that I had captured the measurements with the microphone.
It was close to midnight and, suddenly, a particular song from Norah's CD begged to be played again. And so, I ended the night's pleasures with "The Long Day Is Over".
When played earlier in the evening this piece took sound-field ownership of the full room, much into the adjacent room to one side, and well into my neighbor's apartment to the other side. And I mean front to back. It is significantly different in imaging from the other pieces in the album. It also is a beautiful piece. And it is yet another example of a recording mix that planars can use to display surround sound impressively.
Edits: 02/11/17
It is not hard to understand why this album has sold over 10 million copies :) Not often a "pop" album has been recorded well enough to appeal to audiophiles as well.
Unfortunately won't get a chance to listen until later this week. I used to play them both a lot but always in the background, not in "my chair."
Jonesy
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
I ordered Pulse because I like P.F. and their LPs and CDs usually have been very good sounding.Hopefully it will be here by the weekend.
Got a chance to listen to first two songs on Pulse. Holy smokes. Can you say "guitar". Really fills the soundstage. Crowd down below and all the way past the speakers. Poor Nick, his drums in the background. Vocals laid back a bit whereas Roger Waters would probably be more prominent if he was present. Nice sax imaging.
I didn't feel as immersed as Amused to Death in regards to Q sound. But then it's studio vs live and you don't get the black backgrounds with crowd noise present.
The talent and song writing. Was nice to revisit and feel those shivers again.
Jonesy
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
I had a chance to listen to one of the two Pulse CDs as well.I agree with the above review on it being well recorded with good imaging.Most of my Pink Floyd is on vinyl and I found that the vinyl renditions have better low bass than the Pulse CD.
"In The Flesh" has more bass. Otherwise, like Pulse, same good imaging. Again it's "live", can't really say excellent imaging in terms of being immersed. I checked out "Ummm Gumma" live CD out of curiosity. Realized my search was heading in wrong direction so wound the session down. Except for "Ummm Gumma", I don't have any live PF or RW on vinyl.
Cheers!
Jonesy
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
Do you have In "The Flesh" On CD? is it good?
In the Flesh is good. Pulse CD and Video typical Pink Floyd/David Gilmour with the music and imagery at the forefront. In the Flesh CD and Video more dramatic in the usual Roger Waters way. It's interesting to hear the same songs delivered differently. I'm a big fan of Water's solo stuff too. They are nicely done.
Roger Waters is surprisingly less camera shy In the Flesh" and it's nice to see. Video highly recommended as well.
Cheers!
Jonesy
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
I will look into Flesh.My wife and I listened to some of the other CD in Pulse which are DSOTM selections.It also sounded quite good.Sitting in the middle seemed to be more critical than usual for some reason for the best imaging.We also played Alan Parsons Turn of a Friendly Card & Steely Dan Gaucho lPs which were both excellent for sound stage & imaging.
nt
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
Look forward to comparing some notes next week.
Cheers!
Ed
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
I have/had a copy of Pulse on CD and a copy of the video. One of them went mysteriously missing. I can't remember which. Will look around over the next couple days.
Cheers!
Jonesy
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
That is the thing with planars when optimized in the room and with better electronics the soundstage can be far larger than the spacing between the tweeters and the depth of the room. Recordings made in large acoustics can place instruments well outside the walls. There is even more potential than you have reached so far.To get an idea of how far it can go try the Rooze setup.
aim the speakers so that they are in the line between your seat and the respective corners, shooting at the sidewalls and you can't see the back or front of the speakers when viewing them from the seat. Though it is very impressive with large orchestras once it is finely tuned, the setup reveals itself as artifice when you play small tight ensembles that seem to be at opposite ends of a bowling alley. But the impression with a large ensemble will give you an idea of what to aim for as you tweak. With the proper setup you should come close to that performance with large groups while maintaining proper spreads with small groups.
Edits: 01/29/17
Perhaps I'll give it a go.
One downfall of having such a wide soundstage is that Dianna Krall must be getting really tired running back and forth from one end of that 12' piano to the other!
LOL...just visualizing her doing that.
Now, if not just a joke, what piece would be an example? I have pretty much all of her music and can check here. As far as I can recall, most of her studio recordings mix her voice in the middle between the Maggies and the piano mics mix spread it "behind her". Live concerts vary more but they still endeavor to present her rich voice front and center.
It could be that something needs checking and it may be easy to determine so. For example, if some of us share the spatial and imaging presentation of specific pieces with you, it may help you pinpoint any undue peculiarities.
Also, you can download REW (Room Equalization Wizard) and even without a microphone, use its frequency sweeps to listen for odd off-center shifts . With planars interacting in a room, there usually are some shifts anyway but serious ones would require attention.
Kudos and much continued enjoyment! I love to see folks appreciate the experience.
If not already, as you keep tweaking things you may also start perceiving the same elements with your eyes open. Along the way, the richness of everything inside that soundstage will become more defined. Many elements will acquire specific perceived location within it and even 3D solidity.
And as they do, sound will actually stop "emanating" from the walls. It will all be so palpable that -- yes, with your eyes open -- the walls will disappear on all 3 sides. That's probably because your sight will often be "commanded" to refocus into the new aurally perceived positions. Your head will be able to turn -- to sometimes quite outside the speakers -- and not lose "sight" of the instruments. And, oh man, acoustic instrumental textures with a "specific location" can be so mouth-watering delightful!
Amusingly, your friends will not want to believe it is PLAIN stereo...often source > straight to power amps. Not when some recordings will be so "obviously" surround (which, happily, you already experience).
That is a neat thing planars, including Maggies, will kindly do if we give them a fighting chance. Clearly you are working well on it. My own Maggies will often turn 12' wide x 4' deep into like 24' wide by "cavernous" deep. They began to do this years ago after some hard work and a few good contributions from the good folks here.
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