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Martin Logan Summit X in a big semi-circular room

86.175.142.16

cawson@onetel.com

I'm hoping there may be ML experts here who could guide me. I have an acoustically very difficult room and the speakers I'm using just don't sound as good here as in my earlier more conventional listening room. I'm thinking of ML Summit X speakers to replace my Avantgarde Uno horns.
Here's the problem. The room is nearly 1000 sq ft with low a 7'8" ceiling and 30% carpeting over timber flooring. It's roughly semi-circular (actually more parabolic / pointed end of an egg shape) with most of the curved wall being floor-to-ceiling glass. The speakers are in the middle of the room, either side of a central column and facing to one side, so there's nothing behind them for 15 feet or so. I hope you're following this! See the ultra-wide photo.
I don't want to fill the room with room treatment junk - it would spoil a very lovely room!
So the question is - are planar speakers likely to be happy in this room, or should I look for conventional box speakers such as Revel Studio 2? If so, would Summit X be a good choice? I listen mainly to jazz, female voice, etc at robust but not normally window-shaking volume - occasionally orchestral music too. I love the crystal clarity and detail of the Avantgarde horn speakers but they are not preforming here as well I know they can. I have a good selection of amplifiers - GamuT D200 Mk III, Accuphase A-36 A class, Consonance Cyber 845 SET - to choose from. Thanks for any suggestions.

Edits: 01/27/17

Follow Ups:

RE: Martin Logan Summit X in a big semi-circular room - nicoff 16:01:49 01/30/17 (1)
Nice room!

Let me share a few ideas. The subwoofer (if you decide to add one) may be placed to somewhere to the right of the red sofa maybe even against a wall. And the wires to the sub can be run under the gray carpet. In other words, not visible from where you took your picture. As Satie mentioned, do not underestimate the need for one (or TWO) sub(s). Two JL Audio F113 or one F212 subs come to mind...

Aesthetically, a pair of taller speakers (like the 20.7 for example) would look great as they would add height to your system cluster and emphasize the beauty of your room. Just MY opinion.
- RE: Martin Logan Summit X in a big semi-circular room - russ69 19:20:22 01/30/17 (0)
  That room is perfect for planers. A buddy had a low ceiling open room set-up with 1.6 Magnepans. It was a good as I had ever heard his system and I was very familiar with it. I think the low ceiling helped more than it hurt. Back to the OP issues. I think you would like the Martin Logans as they are a bit more lively than the warmer Magnepans. No matter what speaker you pick, you'll have to work on the subwoofer issue. That will be mostly experimentation until you get it right. Good luck, lots of fun ahead.
RE: Martin Logan Summit X in a big semi-circular room - Satie 21:58:06 01/27/17 (9)
I don't think dipoles need front walls. They actually do quite well in open space, The Avantgarde horns should do quite well too, with clarity and lack of sidewall reflections.However that also means that the bass is not going to be sufficient without boundary effects supporting the box bass. The tone would be lean and density and saturation might be lacking. Even with a SET it might be too dry sounding.

The Summit X is probably a good solution and this should be a good room for planars,but there are two issues.The short panel section will give too much ceiling and floor reflections (the ones I worry more about) relative to full length dipoles. And the volume will make even the large woofer cabinets on the Summits "ask" for assistance from a subwoofer(s). In this short room with low ceilings you probably want a tall line source dipole speaker coupled with modular subwoofers to load the really large space. That would deal with floor and ceiling reflections by making use of them to extend the apparent acoustic source rather than just fill the space with comb filtering from floor reflections.

Facing the dipole node at the side of the ESL or Magnepan speaker to the glass (speaker perpendicular to the wall) should help deal with the glass if the speakers are far enough. The panoramic view of the room indicates you have plenty of clearance to the glass so reflections will arrive much attenuated and late so should not be as much of a bother as one would expect despite all that glass.

Consider that this is a room for a full range panel speakers (MG20.7, large soundlabs, GT Audio model 3, Infinity IRS and Genesis 1, Martin Logan statement) aided by stereo subwoofer stacks or having their own subwoofer towers.

The center column and pile of racks will be helpful in blocking backwave reflections from muddying up imaging so long as the plane of the speakers is not placed ahead of the reflective surfaces of the equipment and TV. .
- RE: Martin Logan Summit X in a big semi-circular room - cawson@onetel.com 11:11:23 01/29/17 (8)
  > Consider that this is a room for a full range panel speakers (MG20.7, large soundlabs, GT Audio model 3, Infinity IRS and Genesis 1, Martin Logan statement) aided by stereo subwoofer stacks or having their own subwoofer towers.
  
  Thanks for your suggestions. However those systems would be fearfully costly. I've never wanted to add subs to big floor standing speakers as they should have enough low frequency output of their own. If I was to take the sub route, I'd use much smaller stand mounts for the non-low bass. My Unos have subs to support the horns that won't go that low.
  
  Would your concerns over low ceiling reflection be addresses by some form of acoustic damping material fixed to an area of ceiling above and in front of the speakers? This area of floor is already carpeted, but the ceiling is suspended plasterboard with a shallow void above for recessed lighting and cables. A modest area could be treated with something although I'm most reluctant if it is visually noticeable.
  
  > The center column and pile of racks will be helpful in blocking backwave reflections from muddying up imaging so long as the plane of the speakers is not placed ahead of the reflective surfaces of the equipment
  
  You mean the speakers should be forward of the column and not alongside?
  - RE: Martin Logan Summit X in a big semi-circular room - Satie 11:30:09 01/29/17 (7)
    The space is large so loading it with bass from a "normal" speaker is not that easy. Which is why I am suggesting using subwoofers. This room is a job for dual 12" dynamic drivers and up, or for Tympani bass. The point isn't that you would be better off with stand mounts and subs but that the small speaker will never get loud enough in that room with the long listening distance you show in your pic. The large ESL panels can do so up to a point but will not load the room with bass quite as well as required. The big Maggies and likely the GT audio will get loud enough but will have limited bass capabilities in the room.
    
    My point about placement relative to the center rack is to place the plane of the speakers just behind the plane of the racks and the center column. If the speakers are in front of the center racks then the backwaves will reflect off of the racks and create early reflections that are far faster than the reflections from the rest of the room and will end up muddying imaging.
    - RE: Martin Logan Summit X in a big semi-circular room - Satie 11:51:05 01/29/17 (6)
      I should add that the right speakers for such a room are controlled directivity such as planars and horns. The Avant Garde is designed for broader dispersion than most horns IIRC - and if so would be at some disadvantage there.Particularly with box bass. Horn bass might be a better choice.
      
      I skipped the ceiling and floor treatments for the somewhat short room. So I should get to that here. The treatments you can install to control both are not pleasant to look at and are bulky. If you watch DB Keele's presentation then you can gain a feel for what is involved with floor reflections. His solution is a more thorough address of the problem than the tall line source (planar or dynamic) but the latter provide a very good solution and have other advantages.
      
      I should add that the MG20.1 from a late production is not as expensive as the Summit X. You can probably live with either of them
      watch the video series from his presentation (Open in New Window)
      - RE: Martin Logan Summit X in a big semi-circular room - cawson@onetel.com 13:21:07 01/29/17 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Martin Logan Summit X in a big semi-circular room posted by Satie on January 29, 2017 at 11:51:05
        
        Interesting. Since I last wrote, I look a look at your profile. Both respondents use Maggies, so I've taken a look at their somewhat lacking in detail website. From what I see, the 3.7i may be a good alternative to ML Summits - cheaper too except that their distribution to the UK seems pretty appalling.
        
        I'll try to listen to a pair although there may well be none on demo in the UK.
        
        I've also do some more experimenting with my AGs as they really should sound better than they did. I've moved them further apart, slightly further forward and reduced the toe-in with some improvement. Perhaps there's more to do!
        
        RE: Martin Logan Summit X in a big semi-circular room - Satie 14:15:12 01/29/17 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Martin Logan Summit X in a big semi-circular room posted by cawson@onetel.com on January 29, 2017 at 13:21:07
        
        I think you can get more out of the AGs. The choices of speakers in your island is more European and there are plenty of horns to choose from, planars less so. The classic Tannoy speakers being a home grown option at the top end of the spectrum. But the Avant Garde is a good starting point for your space. One of their Duo bass horn models might be a better, if more costly choice.
        You can try going for a listen for an Analysis Audio planar, the big one. It lacks the last bit of clarity you can get from a true ribbon tweeter, but it is a good planar speaker. But planars that will compete with a horn for dynamics require quite a bit of reworking in such a large space as your own. They would be quite expensive unless you build your own from new drivers and old "donor" speakers.
        
        RE: Martin Logan Summit X in a big semi-circular room - cawson@onetel.com 10:34:22 01/30/17 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Martin Logan Summit X in a big semi-circular room posted by Satie on January 29, 2017 at 14:15:12
        
        Yes I think you're right - I should be able to get more from my AGs and I'm already making encouraging progress.
        
        On Friday I'm visiting a couple of dealers to listen to some possible alternatives:
        
        Used Martin Logan Summit (X version I think)
        Another used ML Summit that's definitely the non-X version
        New Magico S3 (original version)
        Used Bowens & Wilkins 802D (last version before the current D3)
        
        The 802D is probably the best value as it's offered at under �4000 and is possibly the most appropriate for my room of 975 sq ft. I've only heard an 803 many years ago in a small demo room, but it was mighty impressive.
        
        I'll be wary about changing, but it's worth a day out to listen to these. The 802Ds in particular are ones that I could reckon on re-selling without much loss if I eventually found I preferred the Unos!
        
        RE: Martin Logan Summit X in a big semi-circular room - Satie 13:05:08 01/30/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Martin Logan Summit X in a big semi-circular room posted by cawson@onetel.com on January 30, 2017 at 10:34:22
        
        Since you are coming from horns and appreciate maggies and ESLs I think you should audition the locally made Living Voice Avatar OBX R2 or RW models. A friend who is an avid maggie user was very impressed with them.
        
        B & W - Norman M 10:54:31 01/30/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Martin Logan Summit X in a big semi-circular room posted by cawson@onetel.com on January 30, 2017 at 10:34:22
        
        Several years ago when visiting my dealer (audio equipment, not drugs), I asked to audition their best (most costly B & W). I wasn't impressed and said I felt their vertical soundstage too small, beamed too low and narrow. I recall him replying that's what expected coming from a Maggie owner.
        
        I might have felt otherwise if my ears were at the level of my knees (regardless of any technological advances they might have employed).
        
        RE: B & W - Satie 12:58:48 01/30/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: B & W posted by Norman M on January 30, 2017 at 10:54:31
        
        Good point. It was also my impression from the 800 line and the Wilson WATT/Puppy that the images are projected incorrectly. The technician at the dealer said that they suggest to buyers who find it a problem to tilt the speaker to get the tweeter into closer time alignment to the mids which helps image depth and vertical dimension, but creates holes in the crossover region. But you don't get the broad tall full sized soundstage or imaging that a large planar produces.
        I should point out that there is a FB MUG member who has an 802D3 and a set of 3.7i with a pair of DWM in the same room where the 802D3 is used for HT mains to match with the rest of the surround system and the maggies are used for music. He thinks the B&W don't come close to realistic portrayal. Particularly of space.
first thing first- - Green Lantern 15:51:23 01/27/17 (0)
what a beautiful room/setup!
Having said that, you're gonna need a fairly decent wall if we're talking about getting the most potential out of any dipole speaker.
In your current setup the wall to the right side would be the most obvious choice, however your back would be against the windows and awesome view.
Second and less obvious choice would be to partition off that area of the room with dividers or perhaps even a new wall (I've done that before in a large room).

Edits: 01/27/17 01/27/17

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