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In Reply to: RE: Subs are sub optimal with magenpans! posted by topjetboy@yahoo.com on December 21, 2016 at 11:05:04
Yrs, and it will make little difference to the maggie. If it were producing that bass itself then you would have much bigger IMD than from a detached subwoofer. Besides that, the bottom octave of maggies distorts heavily with high output and shakes the whole speaker. So if a subwoofer is something you would like, then get one, or better yet 2 and take some of the bass load off the maggie. Once you carefully integrated the subs you should have better clarity from the high passed speaker.
Follow Ups:
IMO, the key, or at least a few of the key items in subs and maggies are as follows.
Low cut the panels. This removes some of the stress to the amp while the panels don't do well for much of their lowest octave, anyway.
Crossover TO sub below the HP crossover of the panels. This leaves a small 'gap' between the subs highest and panels LOWest frequencies.
This is good, since done Right, they SUM FLAT thru the crossover region.
Adjust phase as needed.
Experiment with sub placement is critical, too. And may change the crossover frequencies needed for proper integration.
After I did the above, ALL muddiness was gone and everything from Pipe Organ and a Bosendorfer Imperial Grand sounded right all the way to the nuttiest movie effects.
Too much is never enough
I have 2 Rel Strata Subs. Their recommended setup is to take the signal directly from the speaker posts of the amp, rather than from a low pass crossover in the pre. I also have a an LDR preamp. Supposedly, this is better... Debatable, I know...
I'm going to try this for myself, but I'm curious on your thoughts of using a Parasound P5 with the high and low bypass options vs my current setup with full signal frequencies going to both subs and Maggie 1.7's.
Better off giving the Maggies a break on the low end despite the supposed differences with a better pre?
Also, I'd be switching from balanced to unbalanced cabling if I used the Parasound in this setup.
I think you should give the preamp's sub management a chance. It is far cheaper to implement a sub crossover at line level than go through a sub's features where you are running extra circuitry to do the same job. just use the sub's unfiltered line inputs from the Parasound's sub out and set the Rel at its highest freq. The manual has the details for the Rel as to how to do it.
I should add that there is a fixed low pass that will still be engaged in the REL via the line inputs and it has a significant group delay which sometimes makes the integration difficult..
I'll give it a try and let you know. It makes sense. I don't think I've heard any difference with the LDR pre or the balanced cabling, anyway...
I'm getting distortion in one channel, now. I thought I might have blow a ribbon, but the problem goes away when I turn off Dirac. Obviously, Im overdriving something after the filter is applied, but oddly, it never occurred before I tried the bas-mgmt of the P5. And it goes away when I switch back to the Hi-level settings on the sub.
It's really the opposite of what I'd expect. When I take the load ( <50Hz) off the maggies, they act like they're trying to output too much bass.
Searching the internet, I did find instructions from Dirac stating to not put bas mgmt downstream of Dirac. But I can't understand why that would be. There's no way for me to use Dirac software on my Mac Mini AFTER the Parasound P5...
Any thoughts? I've probably recreated the filter 20 times. Different phase setings, volume levels of the sub. With and w/o the xover set on the P5. Higher/lower xover settings on the sub... Always the same problem.
I don't know enough about these systems and little on the Dirac but I will try and help since nobody else is. It just seems that the P5 bass management settings are being corrected by the Dirac software, introducing two layers of departure from the Dirac performance settings 1. the room itself and 2. the parasound management settings.
You could try and set up the parasound to minimize the departure from the Dirac's target curve, but it is simpler to just use the Hi level input of the sub instead.
Thanks Satie. Yes, the Hi-Level is how I've been using the REL. But it's not possible to use the P5 bass mgmt with this, as the Hi-Level connects directly to the speaker posts of the amp, not the pre. So, I'll still be sending the full signal to the Maggies, which is what I was hoping to avoid.
Since Dirac is a software loaded on my Mac Mini, I go from Tidal--> Dirac--> DAC--> P5. So the P5 should be taking the corrected signal from Dirac and splitting it into the REL and Maggies when using bass mgmt. I really don't understand why it doesn't work.
From what you describe when using the P5 bass management with the Dirac it seems that you are getting an overload of the speaker and possibly some over reach by Dirac in trying to flatten out the room.
That can be caused by the calibration measurements for Dirac when run through the P5 with your settings on the P5. Those settings may not be realistic and require lots of correction. So I suggest you optimize the P5 settings and the location of the sub and measure the FR and phase response with REW so that you do not have large corrections for Dirac to make. Then run the calibration measurements.
What you describe with the P5 in the way indicates that the mains portion of the freq spectrum is being corrected upwards to match with the sub output- which is likely being set too high on the P5.
Another option is to restrain the correction Dirac applies to the speakers to the bass fraction of the freq spectrum, say up to about 200 hz.
On a general note, the measurement of dipole speakers is not easy and setting up the measurements for the calibration you should look to average them on a squat window of about 2ft width around your listening position, not rely on a single location.
That all makes sense, but what I can't understand is why the mains are being overdriven at low frequencies when the P5 bass mgmt is supposedly cutting off the frequency at whatever I set it to (currently 50hz, but I tried as high as 80hz with the same results). Very strange...
My best guess is that the subwoofer level you prefer gives you a higher relative output vs. the mains rather than just extending the bass an octave or two, so that when you calibrate and run Dirac it tries to undo the relative output mismatch by raising the relative output from the mains. There is also the possibility that the bass phase/location (i.e. delay) is not matching well with the mains so is producing comb filtering which requires allot of correction.
That is why I suggested measuring the results with the sub and bass management with the P5 and optimizing FR with XO, level and placement before applying Dirac.
Hmmm. Now I think you're onto something. I'll bet it's the phase, as you mentioned. The Rel can output at 180degrees of phase. It would be great if it could change to any of the the 360degrees, so I could dial it in exactly. I'll experiment with this. Thank you!
I have a REL Storm III with my 3.6's works great !!
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