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In Reply to: RE: That strikes me as an odd statement posted by pictureguy on September 29, 2016 at 16:34:55
Well yeah. But anyone who has heard the Rythmik F12G knows which is "better"!
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Cost / benefit / and 'good'-'better'-'best' is all very subjective.
The sub you mention is at a VERY hot price point and the competition is fierce. I suspecct that if it WAS head and shoulders above the similar priced competition, it would Cost More. I mean, if it really is THAT good, they'd sell for even a higher price. Maybe an additional 250$ or so?
I doubt their is REALLY such a thing as gear selling for 1/2 'what it it worth'.
Where are a couple of the old 'standbys' in this mix/ Maybe SVS or perhaps HSU ?/ Does JL compete in this price space?
Too much is never enough
How did this become a referendum on the Rythmik F12G vs. every similarly priced sub?! What I and others said is that it would be a great match for the OP's speakers, and that it is certainly "better" than any Polk! I can vouch for Rythmik subs, as I have a pair of the F15HP built from kits (with 4cu.ft. enclosures in place of the factory 3cu.ft.). I also have the Rythmik/GR Research OB/Dipole (sub)woofers (which uses the GR Research paper-coned 12" woofer, the same one used in the Rythmik F12G but optimized for OB use), which are in a class by themselves. I also still have my old HSU subs, Peter's original 10" version in Sonotubes. Also a pair of transmissionlines with a KEF B139 woofer in each. All good subs, but the pecking order is quite clear to me. I am about to set up a pair of Tympani T-IV's, for both full range use and as woofers for speakers. A comparison of the Tympani woofer panels vs. the OB/Dipole subs should be VERY interesting!Regarding price points, competition, and value, I'm surprised to hear a Maggie owner say that if a product "was head and shoulders above the similar priced competition, it would cost more". Isn't the superiority of the MG1.7i in it's price class, and the MG3.7i in it's, the reason we all own them and other Maggies? The argument that a product cannot be "better" than similarly priced products is absurd, and obviously not true.
Edits: 09/30/16 09/30/16 09/30/16 09/30/16
"A comparison of the Tympani woofer panels vs. the OB/Dipole subs should be VERY interesting!"
My thought exactly. :-) I'd love to hear what you find out.
Both the OB/Dipole (sub)woofer and the Tympani bass panel have what has been called a "lean" character. I consider that a compliment! They both lack an ounce of fat, being pure muscle. Neither, with optimum placement, displays a hint of boom, fatness, or any of the other common complaints about subs in general. They are both very "percussive", reproducing piano, drums, stand-up bass, and any other instrument that is "slapped" the best I have ever heard. I attribute that to their unequalled ability to "start and stop on a dime", as the expression goes.Both require at least 3' of space between them and the wall behind them (mine will have 5', much better), but the Tympani's have a much larger footprint, the two panels being 32" wide to the OB's 16". Because of their dipole/figure-of-8 cancellation to either side, they can be placed right up against the room's side walls, often necessary with the Tympani's because of their width (such will be the case in my room). The question is whether or not my T-IV's will work out in my smaller-than-optimum room. The OB/Dipole will not be a problem---it is very room-friendly.
Edits: 10/02/16 10/02/16 10/02/16 10/02/16
I'm currently running a pair of IVA's in an undersized room so I know exactly what you're talking about. :-) I started with split config and now I have them up against the wall in line to try to get a sonic benchmark -- that arrangement isn't practical for my room as it eats up half of it and blocks a window to boot.
Agree completely with your characterization of the bass. It's something the IVA's share with the 1-D's that I had for many years, and once you've lived with that combination of bass realism, slam, and extension, it's hard to settle for anything else! But I'm having trouble getting the IVA's to image well in the split configuration because the woofer panels tend to block/reflect the back wave. I've thought of splitting the woofer panels -- using a single midbass panel against the wall, which wouldn't block the backwave, and then combining the low bass panels and putting them elsewhere, e.g., out in the hall. But I don't really have a good place for them. So if I could get similar results from the GR W-frame dipoles and jus the midbass panels against the wall, that would be great.
(Room pics here, I was just discussing the setup issues with Play-Mate:)
Did you have a chance to compare single vs dual F15HP in your room? I have read the Harmon-Toole-Geddes-Audioholics arguments for multiple subwoofers but I don't have a way to gauge the changed sound I would hear vs $$$ of adding another. I have one factory F15HP. The non-smoothed frequency response curve is pretty flat and the quantity of base for my 20.5' x 12.5' by 7.75' room is in overkill at about 1/3 volume. Using REW I positioned the sub a foot from a rear corner facing the rear wall. All of the sound seems to come from the front soundstage….a nice illusion. I have noticed a wide variety in bass quality from one classical recording to another of even the same symphony so I suspect a second sub may not always help.
zulugone, your particular room has a lot to do with it. If you're lucky enough not to have severe room modes created by the room's dimensions, a second sub may not bring a huge improvement. Many listeners DO have that problem, and adding a second sub allows nulls to be filled in. That is the biggest advantage of a second, more than increased maximum SPL. But a second may also allow both subs to be set at a lower volume, decreasing their distortion.
My situation is unusual, in that I use the GR Research OB/Dipole Subs as woofers for my speakers, not subs. They can be crossed over as high as 300Hz! Mine are used up to 180Hz, with the F15's from 40Hz down. Definitely overkill, but I already had the F15's when I discovered the OB's; I just had to have them! My room back in S. California was 10'H x 13'W x 19'L, and sounded terrible---flutter echo, severe ringing, etc. I just moved north, and my new room, though smaller, sounds much, much better. I can't wait to get my system set-up here later this month!
So many subs are better than the Polk, I wouldn't even Pretend to know where to begin. When I worked retail, showing customers via the 'rap test' on the enclosure was enough to convince most that they were under built and would have other problems.
That being said:
Subs, are like most of the hi-fi industry VERY competitive. People tend to compare across Price, unless they are pretty well off, than other factors may come into play. But, manufacturers ALSO like to maximize profit, so if they have a 'giant killer', in Any category, that's worth $$$ and such products can command a premium. But given competition, such advantages are typically short lived. The guys over at Emotiva LOVE their specs, but I rather suspect that's about the last thing YOU care about, having developed preferences.
Are speakers the exception? It depends. For the newbie looking to spend 600$ on a setup for HT use the MMG unfortunately doesn't even appear on the Radar. But for people who have developed their tastes and have certain expectations preferences come to the fore. Once I was exposed to the panel sound, presentation and other benefits, I never looked back. I'll admit to having at one point loved the JBL sound of the 4311 / L100 type.
Maggies are better TO ME. I've owned 'em by choice for maybe 35 years. And I sent my original MG-1 panels back to the factory for a rebuild and the ONLY question from Magnepan was 'what color do you want the grill cloth'. That's terrific and a great company.
I'm sure whatever YOU have sounds great. And I'd probably like it, too. Open baffle has always intrigued me. But in such a competitive space such as subs? I might be tempted to NOT recommend anything in particular OR perhaps confine myself to a short list and URGE auditions.
Not everyone is as discerning as you perhaps are or don't have the cash.
Of COURSE at any price point exists 'better' and 'worse'. But don't get upset if we don't put 'em in the same order.
Too much is never enough
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