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In Reply to: RE: That strikes me as an odd statement posted by gadio4533 on September 29, 2016 at 07:11:04
There are limits to the difference in quality that the number of subs can compensate for, but bass dispersion, and thus the predominance of nodes can be better smoothed out with multiple smaller sources than one big one.
Generally, unless your target is reproduction of very deep bass with heft and power - like organ pedal note fundamentals -- you are better off with splitting the budget for one sub over two smaller units.
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That makes sense, especially if you are using quality subs.
When I've done recomenntations and real for $$ set ups and installs, you can only do so much with room compensation - especially with a single sub. Add a second sub and you lose (Smooth) 1/2 to 3/4 the modes in the room AND it works for a range of listening positions - extra bonus!
Low end double subs: Yamaha YST-SW216BL or Polk Audio PSW505 (A great buy on Amazon now) at <$300 and $400 pair would do very well againsy any single $1000 Sub. Heck you could get 4 of the Polks now for less than a grand!
I've also found that mixing different kinds of subs works very well also - though i feel that optimizing the subs positions and settings are easiest optimize if the subs have a continuous phase adjust and is is easiest if you have a good sound analyzer.
In one neighbor's HT setup I added the Yamaha to a Klipsch HT system sub and got over 100dB @ 30 Hz in the three sofa listening positions and flat +/- 3dB to 100Hz in 1/3 octaves with NO EQ at all... Standard rectangular room with a centered front and just to the right of sofa rear wall locations. With only the front sub there was a very boomy 48Hz 8dB peak.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
Good info as I've never attempted multiple subs. Does the dual 'cheap' sub overcome the issue of speed? That is the problem I've had with trying to integrate lesser quality subs with my maggies. They always sound muddled and draw attention to them. The SPL integrates really well, but as others have pointed out, if you'er not in the sweet spot it can sound a little overblown in certain positions.
Everybody wants a "Speedy" Sub - and they spout out about integration and such. A fast subwoofer has to be better, Right? It's easy to imaging a large 15" subwoofer (with all that mass) not being fast and out of control as it integrates a lightweight ESL panel for instance.
This is a figment of an audiophile mind's imagination.
I can't say is any better than this post:
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
The problem with integrating economy subs with "fast" speakers (magnetic-planars, electrostatics, ribbons) is that they exhibit "overshoot"---the driver's cone doesn't immediately return to "rest" when the signal stops as does the cone in excellent subs such as Rythmiks. You hear the sub "booming" after the bass transient is gone, the bass sounding like it's trailing the mids and highs. Rythmik's have been described as "stopping on a dime". The Rythmik patented Direct Servo Feedback and excellent drivers are responsible for their abilities to do so. Good subs cost more for a reason---their higher performance and sound costs more to achieve than the parts cost of budget subs allows. News flash!---high performance woofers cost more than do budget ones! And if means aren't taken to brace the cabinet of a sub, the enclosure will have audible resonances that contribute to even more boom. Bracing costs a manufacturer money too, and that of course affects the retail price of a sub. High performance and good sound costs more to manufacture and to buy---gee, what a surprise! ;-) In spite of that, the Rythmik F12G outperforms not only lower-priced subs, but higher-priced ones as well.Rythmik's owner and designer Brian Ding is VERY special---a highly educated and degreed engineer with audiophile sensibilities, a rare combination. Anyone needing a real good sub or four, do yourself a favor and check him and his subs out. Sterling Sound Mastering in NYC did, and now own eight F15HP's, used in their sound systems for monitoring the best-in-the-world mastering jobs they do.
Edits: 10/03/16 10/03/16
that budget subs are as good as expensive and better designed subs.
I have use M&K and also make my own subs and used DSP and bass ahandling to optimize the response. Of course a 3.7 owner will want a comparable quality Subwoofer. Any speaker that draws attention to itself (resonances, port noise, and a host of other potential electromechanical anomalies) is unwanted at any price point.
In the somewhat diminishing return world of loudspeakers in general - the same pretty much applies to subwoofers. If you double the price of a $1000 subwoofer you get a 10% improvement in performance - By going from 1 to two subwoofers you get a much greater improvement in sound because it is fixing issues with the room and placement.
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
I think you nailed it, that's kind of where I was at. When I can afford a 2nd sub that is the equal to the one I have I will pull the trigger. I have other priorities at this time..... as someone said 'it's all relative'.
Brian Ding of Rythmik (and many others) have explained why a larger woofer cone being automatically "slower" than a smaller one by reason of it's diameter is a myth. Brian (and his partner Danny Richie at GR Research) offer 8", 12" and 15" woofers in various model subs. The difference between the models is in the nature of maximum SPL at a given distortion level, and the lowest frequencies possible to reach at a given SPL, not their "speed". The "speed" (actually a misnomer---Rythmik subs just sound fast! Their clean sound is achieved by means of the Direct Servo Feedback control of their excellent woofers) of the Rythmik subs is audible in all three sized woofer models. Brian is currently finalizing the design of a ported sub with an 18" woofer, slated to be introduced later in the year. Though ported and using an 18" woofer, it too should sound as "fast" as the other Rythmiks.The Rythmik Direct Servo Feedback controls not only the starting and stopping of the woofer's cone (the electrical nature and motors---magnets---of all cone drivers is responsible for that), but also takes into consideration the temperature of the driver's voice coil as it heats up with use. That temperature affects the electrical characteristics of the woofer, and is constantly changing. The DRF also interacts with the woofer in other ways (you can read Mr. Ding's Patent application for specifics if you wish) to keep it's output linear. Rythmiks are not the only good subs out there, but the OP asked specifically about opinions on Rythmik, and that's what I'm giving him!
Edits: 10/05/16
Great info, much appreciated.
There is much more technical material available to read on the Rythmik Audio site, some of it way over my head. Not all of us have PH.D's in electrical engineering, Brian! ;-)
Edits: 10/06/16
You don't need to be a PhD to build a proper servo-controlled woofer setup. I (and others) have tried to query Brian Ding regarding the specifics of the Rythmik implementations, but he was either unwilling (or unable) to elaborate regarding it. In fact, discussions regarding Rythmik got to the point of being disallowed on a couple of forums.
I was left with the impression they are just simple servo-controlled setups. Those have been essentially perfected long before Brian Ding was working on them.
Subwoofers are one of the easiest audio projects to do properly. There's much marketing done in the audio industry, and especially so in the subwoofer category. Watch your wallet. :)
Dave.
We're all free to have any impression we care to. I believe the U.S. Patent Office has stricter rules ;-). One difference between the Rythmik and other servo-feedback designs is right in the name of Mr. Ding's creation: Direct. I'm left with the impression that the direct nature of the design is a noteworthy difference, but not nearly all there is to it.
The U.S. Patent office is a joke when it comes to this type of thing. It ceased to be about any type of technical innovation a long time ago.
Ask Brian to explain the "Direct" implementation to you. :)
Sub-woofers are easy.....that's why so many people build them. Same thing with cables.
Keep your hand on your wallet and beware of the marketing.
Cheers,
Dave.
The "direct" aspect is the one thing I DO understand! It's only the tip of the Rythmik iceberg though.
The "Rythmik iceberg." Classic!!I guess we've found the reason why these drivers are no longer available.
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-ts400d-4-15-titanic-mk-4-subwoofer-4-ohm--295-405Dave.
Edits: 10/08/16
That is exactly what I have seen since I've had my maggies. The reason I went with the Velodyne SPL is my dealer let me demo it in my system. They had it connected with 3.6s and it sounded fantastic. When I demoed it at home I was immediately hooked. I had tried 2 other economy subs I have with this system and couldn't listen for more than a couple minutes. Rythmyk and HSU were on my list but when I heard the Velodyne I looked no further. I appreciate all your useful insight.
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