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That strikes me as an odd statement

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In Reply to: RE: two subs of lesser quality are posted by BigguyinATL on September 28, 2016 at 08:34:04

Not contradicting here, just trying to wrap my head around that. If you have a well designed sub (in my case velodyne spl12) with room calibration
you could get better inigration with say 2 polk vented 12 inch subs?

Follow Ups:

RE: That strikes me as an odd statement - pictureguy 19:30:50 09/29/16 (0)
If I understand room calibration, for every setting that makes it better where you sit, the same setting makes it worse in other places.
The fight than becomes response for a single listener V a HT setup where several persons might be watching the same movie.
Is that correct?
I'd suspect that a pair of 500$ subs would outperform a single sub in the 900/ 1100$ range. Certainly for music and maybe for effects where the extreme LF possible from the higher cost sub MIGHT come into play.

But 'better' is mainly subjective.
Even response can be demonstrated with measurements of in-room response.
Too much is never enough
RE: That strikes me as an odd statement - BDP24 22:23:17 09/28/16 (31)
Polk aren't even close to being in the same performance category as the Rythmik. The Rythmik is a serious sub, used in the monitor systems at Sterling Sound Mastering Lab in NYC, and in some of the best home systems in the world.
- RE: That strikes me as an odd statement - gadio4533 07:11:04 09/29/16 (30)
  That's kind of my point/question. Wouldn't 1 sealed, quality sub be better that any 2 'cheap' subs? I know they are good subs.
  - RE: That strikes me as an odd statement - BDP24 16:29:40 09/29/16 (11)
    Ah, I see your point gadio. But I see Satie's too. Tough choice! I believe what I would do if I had to choose, would be to get one Rythmik F12G now, and a second when I had the funds available. Two inferior subs could, as Satie suggests, outperform a single superior sub, but then you would have to replace both inferior subs to upgrade. If you get one F12G now, adding a second would be the upgrade, no replacement necessary. Cheaper in the long run, and better performance and sound.
    - RE: That strikes me as an odd statement - gadio4533 19:07:06 09/29/16 (0)
      That would be my thought as well. Good tight fast one and add a second when circumstances permit.
    - RE: That strikes me as an odd statement - pictureguy 16:34:55 09/29/16 (9)
      Sort of depends on what 'better' is, right?
      Too much is never enough
      - RE: That strikes me as an odd statement - BDP24 16:38:51 09/29/16 (8)
        
        In Reply to: RE: That strikes me as an odd statement posted by pictureguy on September 29, 2016 at 16:34:55
        
        Well yeah. But anyone who has heard the Rythmik F12G knows which is "better"!
        
        RE: That strikes me as an odd statement - pictureguy 19:25:23 09/29/16 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: That strikes me as an odd statement posted by BDP24 on September 29, 2016 at 16:38:51
        
        Cost / benefit / and 'good'-'better'-'best' is all very subjective.
        
        The sub you mention is at a VERY hot price point and the competition is fierce. I suspecct that if it WAS head and shoulders above the similar priced competition, it would Cost More. I mean, if it really is THAT good, they'd sell for even a higher price. Maybe an additional 250$ or so?
        I doubt their is REALLY such a thing as gear selling for 1/2 'what it it worth'.
        
        Where are a couple of the old 'standbys' in this mix/ Maybe SVS or perhaps HSU ?/ Does JL compete in this price space?
        Too much is never enough
        
        RE: That strikes me as an odd statement - BDP24 00:16:19 09/30/16 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: That strikes me as an odd statement posted by pictureguy on September 29, 2016 at 19:25:23
        
        How did this become a referendum on the Rythmik F12G vs. every similarly priced sub?! What I and others said is that it would be a great match for the OP's speakers, and that it is certainly "better" than any Polk! I can vouch for Rythmik subs, as I have a pair of the F15HP built from kits (with 4cu.ft. enclosures in place of the factory 3cu.ft.). I also have the Rythmik/GR Research OB/Dipole (sub)woofers (which uses the GR Research paper-coned 12" woofer, the same one used in the Rythmik F12G but optimized for OB use), which are in a class by themselves. I also still have my old HSU subs, Peter's original 10" version in Sonotubes. Also a pair of transmissionlines with a KEF B139 woofer in each. All good subs, but the pecking order is quite clear to me. I am about to set up a pair of Tympani T-IV's, for both full range use and as woofers for speakers. A comparison of the Tympani woofer panels vs. the OB/Dipole subs should be VERY interesting!
        Regarding price points, competition, and value, I'm surprised to hear a Maggie owner say that if a product "was head and shoulders above the similar priced competition, it would cost more". Isn't the superiority of the MG1.7i in it's price class, and the MG3.7i in it's, the reason we all own them and other Maggies? The argument that a product cannot be "better" than similarly priced products is absurd, and obviously not true.
        
        Edits: 09/30/16 09/30/16 09/30/16 09/30/16
        
        RE: That strikes me as an odd statement - josh358 05:42:46 10/02/16 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: That strikes me as an odd statement posted by BDP24 on September 30, 2016 at 00:16:19
        
        "A comparison of the Tympani woofer panels vs. the OB/Dipole subs should be VERY interesting!"
        
        My thought exactly. :-) I'd love to hear what you find out.
        
        RE: That strikes me as an odd statement - BDP24 18:26:42 10/02/16 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: That strikes me as an odd statement posted by josh358 on October 02, 2016 at 05:42:46
        
        Both the OB/Dipole (sub)woofer and the Tympani bass panel have what has been called a "lean" character. I consider that a compliment! They both lack an ounce of fat, being pure muscle. Neither, with optimum placement, displays a hint of boom, fatness, or any of the other common complaints about subs in general. They are both very "percussive", reproducing piano, drums, stand-up bass, and any other instrument that is "slapped" the best I have ever heard. I attribute that to their unequalled ability to "start and stop on a dime", as the expression goes.
        Both require at least 3' of space between them and the wall behind them (mine will have 5', much better), but the Tympani's have a much larger footprint, the two panels being 32" wide to the OB's 16". Because of their dipole/figure-of-8 cancellation to either side, they can be placed right up against the room's side walls, often necessary with the Tympani's because of their width (such will be the case in my room). The question is whether or not my T-IV's will work out in my smaller-than-optimum room. The OB/Dipole will not be a problem---it is very room-friendly.
        
        Edits: 10/02/16 10/02/16 10/02/16 10/02/16
        
        RE: That strikes me as an odd statement - josh358 19:31:51 10/02/16 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: That strikes me as an odd statement posted by BDP24 on October 02, 2016 at 18:26:42
        
        I'm currently running a pair of IVA's in an undersized room so I know exactly what you're talking about. :-) I started with split config and now I have them up against the wall in line to try to get a sonic benchmark -- that arrangement isn't practical for my room as it eats up half of it and blocks a window to boot.
        
        Agree completely with your characterization of the bass. It's something the IVA's share with the 1-D's that I had for many years, and once you've lived with that combination of bass realism, slam, and extension, it's hard to settle for anything else! But I'm having trouble getting the IVA's to image well in the split configuration because the woofer panels tend to block/reflect the back wave. I've thought of splitting the woofer panels -- using a single midbass panel against the wall, which wouldn't block the backwave, and then combining the low bass panels and putting them elsewhere, e.g., out in the hall. But I don't really have a good place for them. So if I could get similar results from the GR W-frame dipoles and jus the midbass panels against the wall, that would be great.
        
        (Room pics here, I was just discussing the setup issues with Play-Mate:)
        Pics (Open in New Window)
        
        RE: That strikes me as an odd statement - zulugone 09:34:48 10/01/16 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: That strikes me as an odd statement posted by BDP24 on September 30, 2016 at 00:16:19
        
        Did you have a chance to compare single vs dual F15HP in your room? I have read the Harmon-Toole-Geddes-Audioholics arguments for multiple subwoofers but I don't have a way to gauge the changed sound I would hear vs $$$ of adding another. I have one factory F15HP. The non-smoothed frequency response curve is pretty flat and the quantity of base for my 20.5' x 12.5' by 7.75' room is in overkill at about 1/3 volume. Using REW I positioned the sub a foot from a rear corner facing the rear wall. All of the sound seems to come from the front soundstage….a nice illusion. I have noticed a wide variety in bass quality from one classical recording to another of even the same symphony so I suspect a second sub may not always help.
        
        RE: That strikes me as an odd statement - BDP24 16:20:49 10/01/16 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: That strikes me as an odd statement posted by zulugone on October 01, 2016 at 09:34:48
        
        zulugone, your particular room has a lot to do with it. If you're lucky enough not to have severe room modes created by the room's dimensions, a second sub may not bring a huge improvement. Many listeners DO have that problem, and adding a second sub allows nulls to be filled in. That is the biggest advantage of a second, more than increased maximum SPL. But a second may also allow both subs to be set at a lower volume, decreasing their distortion.
        
        My situation is unusual, in that I use the GR Research OB/Dipole Subs as woofers for my speakers, not subs. They can be crossed over as high as 300Hz! Mine are used up to 180Hz, with the F15's from 40Hz down. Definitely overkill, but I already had the F15's when I discovered the OB's; I just had to have them! My room back in S. California was 10'H x 13'W x 19'L, and sounded terrible---flutter echo, severe ringing, etc. I just moved north, and my new room, though smaller, sounds much, much better. I can't wait to get my system set-up here later this month!
        
        RE: That strikes me as an odd statement - pictureguy 00:56:00 09/30/16 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: That strikes me as an odd statement posted by BDP24 on September 30, 2016 at 00:16:19
        
        So many subs are better than the Polk, I wouldn't even Pretend to know where to begin. When I worked retail, showing customers via the 'rap test' on the enclosure was enough to convince most that they were under built and would have other problems.
        
        That being said:
        
        Subs, are like most of the hi-fi industry VERY competitive. People tend to compare across Price, unless they are pretty well off, than other factors may come into play. But, manufacturers ALSO like to maximize profit, so if they have a 'giant killer', in Any category, that's worth $$$ and such products can command a premium. But given competition, such advantages are typically short lived. The guys over at Emotiva LOVE their specs, but I rather suspect that's about the last thing YOU care about, having developed preferences.
        
        Are speakers the exception? It depends. For the newbie looking to spend 600$ on a setup for HT use the MMG unfortunately doesn't even appear on the Radar. But for people who have developed their tastes and have certain expectations preferences come to the fore. Once I was exposed to the panel sound, presentation and other benefits, I never looked back. I'll admit to having at one point loved the JBL sound of the 4311 / L100 type.
        
        Maggies are better TO ME. I've owned 'em by choice for maybe 35 years. And I sent my original MG-1 panels back to the factory for a rebuild and the ONLY question from Magnepan was 'what color do you want the grill cloth'. That's terrific and a great company.
        
        I'm sure whatever YOU have sounds great. And I'd probably like it, too. Open baffle has always intrigued me. But in such a competitive space such as subs? I might be tempted to NOT recommend anything in particular OR perhaps confine myself to a short list and URGE auditions.
        Not everyone is as discerning as you perhaps are or don't have the cash.
        
        Of COURSE at any price point exists 'better' and 'worse'. But don't get upset if we don't put 'em in the same order.
        Too much is never enough
  - RE: That strikes me as an odd statement - Satie 16:00:35 09/29/16 (16)
    There are limits to the difference in quality that the number of subs can compensate for, but bass dispersion, and thus the predominance of nodes can be better smoothed out with multiple smaller sources than one big one.
    
    Generally, unless your target is reproduction of very deep bass with heft and power - like organ pedal note fundamentals -- you are better off with splitting the budget for one sub over two smaller units.
    - RE: That strikes me as an odd statement - gadio4533 19:08:24 09/29/16 (15)
      That makes sense, especially if you are using quality subs.
      - My experiences with multiple budget base subs - BigguyinATL 10:56:51 10/03/16 (14)
        
        In Reply to: RE: That strikes me as an odd statement posted by gadio4533 on September 29, 2016 at 19:08:24
        
        When I've done recomenntations and real for $$ set ups and installs, you can only do so much with room compensation - especially with a single sub. Add a second sub and you lose (Smooth) 1/2 to 3/4 the modes in the room AND it works for a range of listening positions - extra bonus!
        
        Low end double subs: Yamaha YST-SW216BL or Polk Audio PSW505 (A great buy on Amazon now) at <$300 and $400 pair would do very well againsy any single $1000 Sub. Heck you could get 4 of the Polks now for less than a grand!
        
        I've also found that mixing different kinds of subs works very well also - though i feel that optimizing the subs positions and settings are easiest optimize if the subs have a continuous phase adjust and is is easiest if you have a good sound analyzer.
        
        In one neighbor's HT setup I added the Yamaha to a Klipsch HT system sub and got over 100dB @ 30 Hz in the three sofa listening positions and flat +/- 3dB to 100Hz in 1/3 octaves with NO EQ at all... Standard rectangular room with a centered front and just to the right of sofa rear wall locations. With only the front sub there was a very boomy 48Hz 8dB peak.
        
        "The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
        
        RE: My experiences with multiple budget base subs - gadio4533 13:40:11 10/03/16 (13)
        
        In Reply to: RE: My experiences with multiple budget base subs posted by BigguyinATL on October 03, 2016 at 10:56:51
        
        Good info as I've never attempted multiple subs. Does the dual 'cheap' sub overcome the issue of speed? That is the problem I've had with trying to integrate lesser quality subs with my maggies. They always sound muddled and draw attention to them. The SPL integrates really well, but as others have pointed out, if you'er not in the sweet spot it can sound a little overblown in certain positions.
        
        RE: "Speedy" subs... - BigguyinATL 07:48:08 10/04/16 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: My experiences with multiple budget base subs posted by gadio4533 on October 03, 2016 at 13:40:11
        
        Everybody wants a "Speedy" Sub - and they spout out about integration and such. A fast subwoofer has to be better, Right? It's easy to imaging a large 15" subwoofer (with all that mass) not being fast and out of control as it integrates a lightweight ESL panel for instance.
        
        This is a figment of an audiophile mind's imagination.
        I can't say is any better than this post:
        
        "The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
        "Fast" and "slow" subwoofers: can we put them to bed (Open in New Window)
        
        RE: My experiences with multiple budget base subs - BDP24 14:11:37 10/03/16 (11)
        
        In Reply to: RE: My experiences with multiple budget base subs posted by gadio4533 on October 03, 2016 at 13:40:11
        
        The problem with integrating economy subs with "fast" speakers (magnetic-planars, electrostatics, ribbons) is that they exhibit "overshoot"---the driver's cone doesn't immediately return to "rest" when the signal stops as does the cone in excellent subs such as Rythmiks. You hear the sub "booming" after the bass transient is gone, the bass sounding like it's trailing the mids and highs. Rythmik's have been described as "stopping on a dime". The Rythmik patented Direct Servo Feedback and excellent drivers are responsible for their abilities to do so. Good subs cost more for a reason---their higher performance and sound costs more to achieve than the parts cost of budget subs allows. News flash!---high performance woofers cost more than do budget ones! And if means aren't taken to brace the cabinet of a sub, the enclosure will have audible resonances that contribute to even more boom. Bracing costs a manufacturer money too, and that of course affects the retail price of a sub. High performance and good sound costs more to manufacture and to buy---gee, what a surprise! ;-) In spite of that, the Rythmik F12G outperforms not only lower-priced subs, but higher-priced ones as well.
        Rythmik's owner and designer Brian Ding is VERY special---a highly educated and degreed engineer with audiophile sensibilities, a rare combination. Anyone needing a real good sub or four, do yourself a favor and check him and his subs out. Sterling Sound Mastering in NYC did, and now own eight F15HP's, used in their sound systems for monitoring the best-in-the-world mastering jobs they do.
        
        Edits: 10/03/16 10/03/16
        
        RE: In no way am I recommending... - BigguyinATL 12:02:54 10/04/16 (9)
        
        In Reply to: RE: My experiences with multiple budget base subs posted by BDP24 on October 03, 2016 at 14:11:37
        
        that budget subs are as good as expensive and better designed subs.
        
        I have use M&K and also make my own subs and used DSP and bass ahandling to optimize the response. Of course a 3.7 owner will want a comparable quality Subwoofer. Any speaker that draws attention to itself (resonances, port noise, and a host of other potential electromechanical anomalies) is unwanted at any price point.
        In the somewhat diminishing return world of loudspeakers in general - the same pretty much applies to subwoofers. If you double the price of a $1000 subwoofer you get a 10% improvement in performance - By going from 1 to two subwoofers you get a much greater improvement in sound because it is fixing issues with the room and placement.
        
        "The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
        
        RE: In no way am I recommending... - gadio4533 14:58:11 10/04/16 (8)
        
        In Reply to: RE: In no way am I recommending... posted by BigguyinATL on October 04, 2016 at 12:02:54
        
        I think you nailed it, that's kind of where I was at. When I can afford a 2nd sub that is the equal to the one I have I will pull the trigger. I have other priorities at this time..... as someone said 'it's all relative'.
        
        RE: In no way am I recommending... - BDP24 16:59:53 10/05/16 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: In no way am I recommending... posted by gadio4533 on October 04, 2016 at 14:58:11
        
        Brian Ding of Rythmik (and many others) have explained why a larger woofer cone being automatically "slower" than a smaller one by reason of it's diameter is a myth. Brian (and his partner Danny Richie at GR Research) offer 8", 12" and 15" woofers in various model subs. The difference between the models is in the nature of maximum SPL at a given distortion level, and the lowest frequencies possible to reach at a given SPL, not their "speed". The "speed" (actually a misnomer---Rythmik subs just sound fast! Their clean sound is achieved by means of the Direct Servo Feedback control of their excellent woofers) of the Rythmik subs is audible in all three sized woofer models. Brian is currently finalizing the design of a ported sub with an 18" woofer, slated to be introduced later in the year. Though ported and using an 18" woofer, it too should sound as "fast" as the other Rythmiks.
        The Rythmik Direct Servo Feedback controls not only the starting and stopping of the woofer's cone (the electrical nature and motors---magnets---of all cone drivers is responsible for that), but also takes into consideration the temperature of the driver's voice coil as it heats up with use. That temperature affects the electrical characteristics of the woofer, and is constantly changing. The DRF also interacts with the woofer in other ways (you can read Mr. Ding's Patent application for specifics if you wish) to keep it's output linear. Rythmiks are not the only good subs out there, but the OP asked specifically about opinions on Rythmik, and that's what I'm giving him!
        
        Edits: 10/05/16
        
        RE: In no way am I recommending... - gadio4533 18:38:47 10/05/16 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: In no way am I recommending... posted by BDP24 on October 05, 2016 at 16:59:53
        
        Great info, much appreciated.
        
        RE: In no way am I recommending... - BDP24 03:57:49 10/06/16 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: In no way am I recommending... posted by gadio4533 on October 05, 2016 at 18:38:47
        
        There is much more technical material available to read on the Rythmik Audio site, some of it way over my head. Not all of us have PH.D's in electrical engineering, Brian! ;-)
        
        Edits: 10/06/16
        
        RE: In no way am I recommending... - Davey 07:25:05 10/06/16 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: In no way am I recommending... posted by BDP24 on October 06, 2016 at 03:57:49
        
        You don't need to be a PhD to build a proper servo-controlled woofer setup. I (and others) have tried to query Brian Ding regarding the specifics of the Rythmik implementations, but he was either unwilling (or unable) to elaborate regarding it. In fact, discussions regarding Rythmik got to the point of being disallowed on a couple of forums.
        
        I was left with the impression they are just simple servo-controlled setups. Those have been essentially perfected long before Brian Ding was working on them.
        
        Subwoofers are one of the easiest audio projects to do properly. There's much marketing done in the audio industry, and especially so in the subwoofer category. Watch your wallet. :)
        
        Dave.
        
        RE: In no way am I recommending... - BDP24 12:05:57 10/06/16 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: In no way am I recommending... posted by Davey on October 06, 2016 at 07:25:05
        
        We're all free to have any impression we care to. I believe the U.S. Patent Office has stricter rules ;-). One difference between the Rythmik and other servo-feedback designs is right in the name of Mr. Ding's creation: Direct. I'm left with the impression that the direct nature of the design is a noteworthy difference, but not nearly all there is to it.
        
        RE: In no way am I recommending... - Davey 13:03:40 10/06/16 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: In no way am I recommending... posted by BDP24 on October 06, 2016 at 12:05:57
        
        The U.S. Patent office is a joke when it comes to this type of thing. It ceased to be about any type of technical innovation a long time ago.
        Ask Brian to explain the "Direct" implementation to you. :)
        
        Sub-woofers are easy.....that's why so many people build them. Same thing with cables.
        
        Keep your hand on your wallet and beware of the marketing.
        
        Cheers,
        
        Dave.
        
        RE: In no way am I recommending... - BDP24 16:14:53 10/08/16 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: In no way am I recommending... posted by Davey on October 06, 2016 at 13:03:40
        
        The "direct" aspect is the one thing I DO understand! It's only the tip of the Rythmik iceberg though.
        
        RE: In no way am I recommending... - Davey 17:00:34 10/08/16 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: In no way am I recommending... posted by BDP24 on October 08, 2016 at 16:14:53
        
        The "Rythmik iceberg." Classic!!
        I guess we've found the reason why these drivers are no longer available.
        http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-ts400d-4-15-titanic-mk-4-subwoofer-4-ohm--295-405
        Dave.
        http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-ts400d-4-15-titani (Open in New Window)
        
        Edits: 10/08/16
        
        RE: My experiences with multiple budget base subs - gadio4533 06:57:58 10/04/16 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: My experiences with multiple budget base subs posted by BDP24 on October 03, 2016 at 14:11:37
        
        That is exactly what I have seen since I've had my maggies. The reason I went with the Velodyne SPL is my dealer let me demo it in my system. They had it connected with 3.6s and it sounded fantastic. When I demoed it at home I was immediately hooked. I had tried 2 other economy subs I have with this system and couldn't listen for more than a couple minutes. Rythmyk and HSU were on my list but when I heard the Velodyne I looked no further. I appreciate all your useful insight.
  - It's all relative. - RickeyM 14:51:06 09/29/16 (0)
    It all depends on the difference in SQ of the better sub and the lesser subs.

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