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In Reply to: RE: Don't give up on maggie midbass.. posted by Satie on August 30, 2016 at 20:22:51
Thanks for suggestion. Don't know why but i was not impressed with 20.7 sound plus being a tube guy I don't want to maintain some 16 tubes in each monoblock to drive them....No,no bracing and not about overall output in recreating Jazz club atmosphere. I was frustrated more about eternal question of truthful reproduction. Try for example for curiosity sake to play some overcooked recordings like Chris Jones/Moonstruck/track#3.Ain't got love. or Sara.K/Water falls/Track#8.All your love. on the same Stockfish records. It is like a demo file and showcase for Maggies, making you believe that no bass reinforcement is needed at all. Switching however to normal recording like Patricia Barber/Verse/track#2.Lost In This Love... will reveal all shortcomings. Kind of torture test. Listen to that track on Maggie and then on good dynamic speakers or simple A-B'ing via something like sennheiser hd650 or similar.That comparison leaves me very frustrated.
Or maybe I will give Maggie a second chance due to some crazy experiment I had a few weeks ago. I cheated on Maggie by bringing home two dynamic speakers for comparison- Kef Blade2 and Wilson Sophia3. While I spent most of the weekend comparing between Blade and Sophia in the end I made interesting test. Wilson can not be biamped but Blade fortunately yes,so I played bass section (6.5" 2x2 per speaker.Two separate enclosures combining dual opposing cancelling woofers with port)of blade with Maggies. It was not bad at all thou not perfect since I was unprepared for fine tuning with that type of test but it gave me a lot of food for thought for combining woofer/s instead of subs.Sure nobody will buy blade2 as woofer for Maggie but probably building enclosure using good driver would be satisfying in the end.
Follow Ups:
I was thinking of a DIY Neo8 PDR line array coupled to a pair of these subwoofers for woofer/subwoofer duty. They are bipolar like the KEF blades - IIRC.
Nice options you have:) That's exactly what I was thinking. However I have some doubts and still scratching my head. Martin Logan switched to similar design to their subs recently instead of also kinda canceling tri-drivers approach. Bipolar/cancelling design is very nice idea. I tried B&W sub PV1D with 8" opposing drivers with Maggies but left unimpressed by tiny, yet dominating… not so blending… bass signature. Yes fast and tight and on the paper should match Maggie but…. Don't know how to explain… If you can go to local dealer or nearest tradeshow.. Or friends. Try to compare near best implementation of two technologies---sealed vs ported. Perfect case Magico vs Wilson...Magico while being fast and detailed have that sort of sealed bass notes that leave me personally almost ill with impression of being hit by giant ogr's fist into my stomach/diaphragm dreaming of free air breath. Wilson is opposite.. Bass tuning is perfect and free…(unless you play some Stockfish label samples with tube amp-- it will be distorted) so you don't see the speakers it is percfect cliche phrase of disappearing act.
So I think that superbly implemented ported design is more suitable to my liking. What Kef did is exactly what I was thinking about. Combining two opposing anti- vibration woofers with free breathing port. Actually they even did more…instead of competing with wilson on composite resin material-- super dumping heavy and expensive they did cheaper lighter version but they added some nice stuff as dumping carbon absorbing particles to deal with vibration and resonance.Four light and fast midrange/woofers provide speed and grip while doubling add needed bass and no distortion---NICE. The only thing stopping me from trying it now is cost of total 8 drivers only for trying/pilot project. Going into Wilson approach is cheaper.. Only one 10" driver like Scanspeak.. Ah don't know… a lot of thinking… Personally if not that crazy price increase steps like Wilson Maxx2-50k---Maxx3-75--Alexx(Maxx4)--109k that makes me sick I would go for second hand at half the price but again wonderfully sounding Alexia is around 30k used. Jesus why there is no competition at all??????? Returning to 5k Maggie 3.7 is a relief but again that bass!!!!!! ¡!
Yes, I thought the percussive bass from the Magicos was very impressive but only happens in real life on rock shows and inside Kodo drums.
The Focal does bass like the Wilsons with a big enough driver and cabinet with slot loading. Still knock the breath out of you if called for.
I can only suggest that you try and hear a big maggie with proper bracing on it before you treck over to the immovable damped boxes. Perhaps press a magico against the woofer side of an mg20.7 at the dealer's to brace it with the mass 1/2 way up. It really makes a big difference.
Another approach is the LS9 with its lines of sealed woofers and open Neo8PDR.
I am intending to do a similar experiment with a friend's Focal Nova Utopia with the mini fridge bass units and my Neo8 + ribbon mid/tweet sections.
Generally speaking, a braced set of T IV bass panels is not uncompetitive with the Focal bass given sufficient power to the maggies they do a very convincing rendition of organ foot pedals. Where they lack in comparison to the well done box woofers is with percussive bass. That pounding sensation just never happens.
I recently tried out my converted Vandy 2c subs with Aura 8" Neo driver and 10" bass using both speakers on one side vs. bass panels on the other. (equivalent to 2 13" bass units) and tested to see where the bass would swing to the Vandy sub's direction, (calibrated level settings at 100hz) and it was only in the lowest contrabass notes and organ. But playing loud bass heavy dynamic music the vandy subs started compressing and rattling while the bass panels were just fine. And the music did not pull to the sub's side at all.
So I think the issue is not having enough radiating area on the 3.x models and the need for sturdy bracing, and really big power (I use a Crown 5002). The difference in bass performance with the big maggies on Mye stands or other bracing and left to themselves is vast. It is like adding a large subwoofer. The dynamic limitations you are speaking of are easily surmounted with bracing and ample power . - and a big bass panel...
That could be cool. Just try to cross high around 250 for comparison. Unlike pure sub, JL like T-Rex thumping drivers-Focal 13WX inch Audiom woofer is fast and musical, able to sing very high and I think was crossed around 250hz in both WILSON Maxx and Utopia.Not sure about biamping on Utopia though....Some 7 or 8 years ago I helped my friend to build sub with 11WX woofer Focal audiom to mate it with 3.7---was not bad.
I have line level XOs to play with so can tune the same way I have with the bass panels.
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