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In Reply to: RE: Acoustic treatments and dipoles posted by M3 lover on April 02, 2016 at 11:55:02
M3,
I agree with the five foot rule of thumb, but I think it is a lot more complicated. I believe manufacturers voice their speaker balance taking the front wall into consideration as well as the consideration that many or most people are unable or unwilling to place the speaker out five feet or more.
Maggies imo do not sound better in all ways as you move them out beyond four to five feet. As you go further out they start to lose dynamic snap and images become kind of less palpable. Significantly so at distances greater than six feet. They do however gain depth and sound staging. The balance point is of course a matter of personal preference. The Limage setup helps to reduce the negatives of getting out so far, as does the trick of moving them closer to the SW with lots of toe in. Both solutions have drawbacks and tradeoffs of their own though.
One other observation is that I do not think all models of Maggies are even voiced the same. My old IIIa's REALLY NEED distance from the FW to tame the upper Mids. On the other hand, I get the sense Magnepan tried to specifically design the 3.7i to be used closer to the FW. It is certainly true in all rooms I have tried it.
For example, they won a TAS best sound regardless of cost award at AXPONA last year with 3.7i's set up about two feet from the FW (heavily curtained window) and about 18 inches from the SW. It had a lot of dynamic snap, very little stage depth. And I agree it sounded much better than most rooms.
Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing for my opinion, and I am not even sure I prefer them one way or another. My 3.7i's sound great in the right room at four foot, and they can sound great but in different ways at seven feet too. I have never found a perfect placement, just tradeoffs.
What do others think?
Follow Ups:
For the record yes my Maggies stand approx 9' from the front wall; however the same wall shares a 3' deep entertainment center which occupies about 2/3rd's of said wall. So one could argue it's closer to 6' vs 9' (although there's a lot of nooks and crannies, (oh yeah I'm sure there's a lot happening back there acoustically).I've tried them in many different configurations ie different wall, close to wall, 'shoulder' to wall etc., but the current position seems to suit me both acoustically as well as aesthetically.
I had the pleasure of having both M3 Lover and photoguy over and they offered me excellent acoustical treatment advice. Initially my intent was not to turn this room (which started out as a family room) into a acoustic chamber but since all the kids are away at college I'm leaning more towards a more 'intelligent design'.
But the sound I'm hearing is incredible, I can't imagine it getting better. Yes I know, big screen TVs and glass doors are no friend to Maggies and discussions regarding covering them with a blanket, sheet, etc would only be considered during a 'Maggie day' scenario only.
Edits: 04/03/16 04/03/16
As magnepan had showed at its show presentation using general absorption lets you place the speakers close to the wall. The cost is in some of the depth that the backwave provides if it is sufficiently delayed relative to the direct wave.
Diffusion allows you to place the speakers 3-4 ft from the front wall. Irregular surfaces like stuffed bookcases with staggered items in it will do some diffusion for you. However, if you are a "sonar" listener, like our Josh here then you will pick out the major shapes of the front wall surface. Like a large piece of furniture or a mantle piece.
For GL's room, I think the fake ficus is the most effective and convenient diffusion device.
The other solution is simply longer distances to the front wall and readjustment of sidewall reinforcement to retain dynamic performance on a power response basis (i.e. speaker + reflections vs direct wave), as you reduce it when you distance the speakers from the front wall. In a multiamp setup you can readjust relative driver levels to compensate - so long as your amp speaker combo retains headroom - not that easy to do in a large room...
That large entertainment center was there when GL invited us over to hear his 20.1s. And yes, they must foreshorten the speaker-to-wall distance. But as his photo show the many details to the woodwork surely provide some diffraction. So it is not like he has a second wing-wall 6' back.
But whatever the distance, they sound simply wonderful and it is easy to see why he is so pleased.
"You can't know what the "best" is unless you have heard everything, and keep in mind that given individual tastes, there really isn't any such thing." HP
Ah thank you for the kind words, I have regular 20s not the 20.1 ;)
I'm looking to do another Maggie day some time in the near future
These are 20's? Looks awesome.
I have never really heard a properly sized and set up pair of twenties, just audio salons with them stuck in too small of rooms.
Mr. Cat,
I agree it is a matter of trade offs and personal preference. So we can have many "rules of thumb" but there are very few "absolutes".
Regarding sidewalls, I believe dipoles have an advantage over direct radiation (box) speakers. Since most tend to be a line source or at least similar, they have less sound field radiation to the side. So they can be placed closer to sidewalls than many other designs. Even then, a little toe-in can help too.
Hopefully all this discussion proves helpful to the OP.
"You can't know what the "best" is unless you have heard everything, and keep in mind that given individual tastes, there really isn't any such thing." HP
How far are yours out right now? Mine have been at about six feet for the last month, but I just moved them in last night to 4-5 (with diffusion). I am not sure I have ever gotten 3 foot or less to sound satisfying. Maybe if I had more diffusion?
I agree toe in really helps to make the side wall start to disappear, at least for higher frequencies.
I cheated, I changed speakers.
My 20' x 17' x 11' room has some issues but I fully expected modified 1.6s could work well there. I tried endless positions but the sound never bloomed and came together.
So I bought a pair of Janszen zA2.1s. Quite a bit more expensive but overall the best sound I've enjoyed from my system. However the electrostatic mids and tweets are enclosed so do not radiate from the rear. So they can be placed closer to the wall. Mine have smoothest response about 20" out to the back corner of their cabinets.
"You can't know what the "best" is unless you have heard everything, and keep in mind that given individual tastes, there really isn't any such thing." HP
I've heard great things about the Janszen's. I only heard them at one show, playing a bad CD someone insisted on. Hopefully they will be at Axpona this month.
Initially I heard the zA2.1 at an audio club presentation and at THE Show Newport. I would not have purchased them from those demos, although I could hear some potential. Fortunately I was able to arrange an in-home trial with the pair here for the club presentation. That was a world of difference and I decided to buy a pair almost immediately.
Since then I've heard them a couple more times at shows. Those demos were certainly better but I would encourage anyone to arrange a home trial if they might be interested in the Janszens. They CAN be a very special speaker.
"You can't know what the "best" is unless you have heard everything, and keep in mind that given individual tastes, there really isn't any such thing." HP
I also heard the Janzsen at THE show last year in Irvine.
I was also not so thrilled.
On the other hand, the Sanders top of the line was fantastic---if you were exactly in the center sweet spot.
The Maggie 0.7 with sub demo was also excellent.
Revel Ultima was also very nice and hardly anybody was there.
Cool! Thanks. I agree that shows are really hit and miss. The last show also had a terrible showing of Sanders and King Sounds. Two years ago, King was close to best in show.
I am also hoping to give a serious listen to Linkwitz Lab. I know they are attending, but not positive if they have a speaker demo. I have heard others describe Linkwitz as unbelievable for the money.
Several years ago (maybe 5) I was very interested in his speakers. I knew he had an outstanding reputation for his designs and reading his site description pushed most of my buttons with his objectives with his speakers.
However while traveling I was able to visit an owner in NM and I did not come away impressed. Since that confused me I then had a chance to visit Mr. Linkwitz during a trip to No. Cal. His speakers were set up in a fairly long room with large windows on three sides (modern architecture). I wouldn't say they sounded bad but they failed to excite me with their connection to any of the music played. And I intentionally brought a few favored CDs I know quite well.
So would I say his speakers are not good? Certainly not. But this was a reminder that we come to this hobby with different experiences and expectations and no one design for any component is likely to please everyone.
Definitely a plug for home auditions.
"You can't know what the "best" is unless you have heard everything, and keep in mind that given individual tastes, there really isn't any such thing." HP
Awesome feedback, M3. Gracias.
It is always fun to hear new speakers. I rotate now between three models in several different rooms (I am an empty nester with too much space). My 3.7i's, IIIa's, and a pair of Goldenear Triton 2's. The latter image and throw off an amazing soundstage if set up 6-7 feet from the FW, but they simply do not sound as "refined" as the Maggies. I suspect their biggest weakness is the cabinet isn't completely inert.
Build them a second cabinet and inset the speakers into it with a layer of neoprene or viscoelastic foam or soundcoat (what a friend did to his VMPS RM30 planar hybrids with a Corian external cabinet very effective)
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