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In Reply to: RE: Sound stage posted by neolith on March 19, 2016 at 09:04:14
Swap the speakers L/R for tweeters 'in' and REDUCE toe.
Too much is never enough
Follow Ups:
I will give it a try but you realize your recommendation is diametrically opposed to Magnepan who suggest tweeters out for wider stage (in for better imaging) and more toe-in when the tweeters are inward so that the tweeters are further away than the bass panels from the listener.
When you have tweeeters in you can space the speakers further apart without the central image collapsing, That provides a larger soundstage. Since you have plenty of space to the sides you can space the speakers as far apart as 10' inside edge to inside edge with tweeters in. If your room is not too lively you can take the speakers to where the tweeters are as close as 36" from the sidewalls, that is often a better location for them in terms of balancing direct and reflected sound, worth a try in any case.
Perhaps these problems relate to the 3.X series, and could possibly be why I dislike my 3.6. I listen to Tympani IV-As and by positioning their T/M panels contiguous to their B panels, I never had big problems. I have succeeded in positioning the IV-As such that their sound arises directly from the panels themselves (as if that was where the musicians were located), BUT which then blooms into the room in a natural fashion. When I find certain recordings don't allow for this, I engage my C-9 'holocaust generator' and then the sound appears to bloom directly at the level of the speakers, (which being unnatural, may be the reason why some listeners dislike it).
With the great amount of front real estate that a T IVa covers you can't really escape the soundstage appearing to come from the speakers. Even if you manage to get imaging well beyond the edges of a 15 ft T IVa lateral spread, You would need to close your eyes and point to the apparent image position to convince yourself that an image is coming from outside the speaker spread.
I'm pleased to wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of the situation.
"I will give it a try but you realize your recommendation is diametrically opposed to Magnepan who suggest tweeters out for wider stage.."
It is somewhat dependent on room size. Maggie's soundstage can go wide and deep, I have had the best results with tweeters in and toe-in to a point behind my head. Your description still sounds like you are not there yet. The soundstage should go way past the side walls. I almost want to say you'll be hearing sounds that sound like they are outside or in the next room. You are close but not there yet. Keep experimenting.
When seated in a concert hall if the performers sound as if they outside or in the next room, there must be some big problem either with hall, or with one's hearing. However a lot depends on a given seating location and the ratio of direct to indirect or reflected sound. IME and generally speaking if all tickets were priced the same I believe it correct to say that few listeners would pick those seats where a large portion of the sound is reflected or indirect, and fewer yet where the sound seems to come from outside the room. I fail to understand why audio enthusiasts like 'airy' sound. I recall having read somewhere that no one wants to pay to hear the hall. (That's not to imply that anyone wants to listen to music in an anechoic chamber.)
"When seated in a concert hall if the performers sound as if they outside or in the next room, there must be some big problem..."
Not all music is recorded in a concert hall nor are all recordings limited to sounds captured inside a box. Have you never turned down the sound because you weren't sure where a particular sound was coming from because the spatial clues suggested the sound was someplace else?
The listener needn't forsake classical concert hall "captured inside a box" to hear sound arising from *outside or in the next room* (quoting myself here*). There is an abundance of classical music compositions which call for offstage sound contributions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offstage_brass_and_percussion
(quoting from the Wiki page):
"List of pieces that call for offstage instruments
Ludwig van Beethoven
Leonore Overture No. 3 - 1 trumpet
Hector Berlioz
Symphonie Fantastique - 1 oboe in the third movement.
Grand messe des morts (Requiem) - 4 brass bands, placed north, south, east and west of the audience
Havergal Brian
Symphony No. 1 (The Gothic) - Four groups, each containing 2 horns, 2 trumpets, 2 trombones, 2 tubas and 1 set of timpani
Benjamin Britten
Serenade for Tenor, Horn and Strings - the solo horn in the Epilogue
Gustav Mahler
Symphony No. 1 - 3 trumpets
Symphony No. 2 - 4 trumpets, 4-6 horns, bass drum with cymbals attached, triangle and timpani
Symphony No. 3 - Snare drums and posthorn
Symphony No. 6 - Cowbells and deep tubular bells
Symphony No. 7 - Cowbells
Symphony No. 8 - 4 trumpets and 3 trombones
Krzysztof Penderecki
Seven Gates of Jerusalem - 3 clarinets, 3 bassoons, contrabassoon, 4 horns, 3 trumpets, 4 trombones, 1 tuba
Sergei Prokofiev
Lieutenant Kijé Suite - 1 cornet
Ottorino Respighi
Feste Romane - 3 Buccine (3 soprano)
Pines of Rome - 6 Buccine (2 soprano, 2 tenor, 2 bass) and 1 trumpet
Church Windows - trumpet
Dmitri Shostakovich
Festive Overture - 4 horns, 3 trumpets and 3 trombones
Song of the Forests - 6 trumpets and 6 trombones
Richard Strauss
Eine Alpensinfonie - 12 horns, 2 trumpets and 2 trombones
Ein Heldenleben - 3 trumpets
Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky
1812 Overture - "Open" instrumentation consisting of "any extra brass instruments" available.
Giuseppe Verdi
Requiem - 4 trumpets
Luisa Miller - 4 horns
William Walton
Belshazza"
Whether seated in the concert hall 'box' or listening to recorded music at home, those offstage instuments sound like they are outside or in the next room because they are indeed there! (And moreover, easily distinguished from all the in the box sound.)
The spatial cues from the recording should provide a sense of the original acoustic's dimensions which should provide a larger soundstage than the size of the listening room. Necessarily this would result in sounds appearing to come from behind the front wall and beyond the side walls. The room and positioning will determine whether this is actually achieved. The main point is having sufficient reduction in the room's refllective contribution and increase its timing relative to direct sound so that the listening room's size cues do not dominate the cues forming the soundstage.
Having sounds appear to come from the venue's walls well outside the listening room's confines is precisely what you are trying to achieve. It is not an imposition of an "airy" sound by the system, it is freeing the sound from room effects, positioning problems and speaker polar pattern artifacts
The 'RULE' is that when something doesn't work to your expectation to CAN the rules and experiment.
You can't hurt anything.When I placed MY panels? I even put 'em with BACKSIDE to me. Yep, I experimented with listening to the pole piece side. Just like my ancient MG-1s That didn't last.
Part of the solution MAY be the mid / high crossover. If it is asymmetrical, than the tweeter will LOBE and not project 'straight' out. I take advantage of that.
I should also add I have trouble following 'rules' and might even have impulse control issues.
OR?
What are you going to believe, your EARS or the Directions?
Too much is never enough
Edits: 03/21/16
and get a cheap laser distance meter for exact speaker placement equidistant to listening position and walls. Forget a tape measure as not accurate enough.
You will be very surprised at the results. Sounds from each speaker will have a perfect reverberant field with each other.
On my 1.6s with the edge stile, I use THAT as my reference point. The FIRST thing is speaker to wall from 2-points per speaker. Each side. Than do the math, determine toe angle and where they 'cross'.
You MIGHT find it of value to get a DRAWING of the room made or MAKE it in Google Sketchup. A free drawing program can help with both setup and record keeping.
Too much is never enough
Let your PC do advanced math using REW to do toe-in and speaker positioning. Then you can actually see what you're doing and how it impacts the listening position's frequency response, waterfall decay, group delay, & RT60. Diminishing returns (or death) sets in at some point. Every little change including the room treatments are clearly visible and comparisons are easy. A tweaker's paradise.
The stiles are a great reference point.
No MATTER the appoach to perfection:
It is important to KEEP RECORDS. Measurements and dimensions. Any room treatment changes.
If you print the 20 or 30 pages from REW every time you do a new setup, be SURE to organize them in some fashion. It is more than possible that improving parameter 'X' will result in another parameter getting worse. At least on paper.
AT some point you must decide your PRIORITIES and if the UberFuerher will allow the changes required for 'perfection'.
Too much is never enough
Pictureguy has it right. Tweeters in, less toe in. And maybe pull them out some more.
Edits: 03/21/16
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