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Overall, I am very pleased with my current setup but I have one issue. The sound stage seems to be limited to the edges of the speakers so that some instruments seem to be coming from the speakers rather than extending out. I know some of this is dependent on the recording (early stereo recordings from the 50's and early 60's stressed separation of the instruments).
The imaging is precise but I would like the speakers to "disappear". As you can see in the picture the tweeters are outside and the distance between the inside rails of the speakers is 6-1/2'. My chair is about 10' from the speakers which are 52" from the rear wall and 5' from from the side walls. Any suggestions?
Oh yeah, the room is scheduled for a make-over. Replacing the 25 year-old carpet with laminate flooring and painting the room. Probably put in a oriental rug to soften the floor reflections.
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Perhaps you might like to try adding Carver's C-9 Hologram Generator to your system. (I had one since it became available). The C-9 can easily be set into and out of the signal path by hitting a single button.
Set-up properly (the distances between L & R speakers to your ears should match closely), a stage expands both horizontally (beyond a speaker's outer edges), and also vertically (up from the floor, approaching the ceiling. Some listeners (not I) have gone so far as claiming an image wraps all around them. An audio buddy claimed he heard the sound of my system coming from behind his back. Six C-9s were recently available at the Bay, costing $100 and much less. IMO anyone could enjoy experimenting with it whether or not content with their sound stage. (For certain, good or bad, it does a whole lot more than any tweek will ever do.)
I purchased a used C-9 last year as an experiment. After 15 years of adding diffusors, 67 tube traps and more, I had incredible imaging in my sound room. I had remembered the C9 effects from my first pair of Maggies.
Surprisingly, I was quite disappointed in the C9. It was an affect that actually seemed to take away the realism that I had worked so hard to achieve. Interesting, but not 'real'. I returned it the next day.
"I see sound waves"
It's conceivable that with all your room treatments: "years of adding diffusors, 67 tube traps and more," you rendered your room incapable of revealing any benefit from using a C-9. That must have been, or still is, one ungodly room, requiring/benefiting from all that fussing around. Dealers demonstrate their Maggies to the satisfaction of customers all the time, and such that they buy them (with their listening rooms having little or no treatments, and very often having obstacles plus a lot of extraneous clutter). That doesn't mean to imply that any listening room is unable to benefit from some treatment, or other.
The Sonic Hologram, also known as the Sonic Holocaust was Bob's effort at canceling 'interaural time delay'.
This is when the sound from the LEFT side of the stage reaches the RIGHT ear about 1/2 millisecon d later.
The idea is to subtract the common R from the L and the common L from the R.
Polk had the SDA speakers which did the same thing by locating the presence drivers about 6" apart, which is about the distance between EARS.
Link to discussion of the SDA speaker and why it 'went away'. But still has a following.
Too much is never enough
My C9 "Sonic Holocaust" generator sits within fingertip range and succeeds in 'opening up' the sound of recordings which otherwise would appear 'congested', or whenever I choose to blast away (similarly giving rise to congestion during loud passages). Although the C9 is only a gimmick which produces a sort of sonic 'trickery', so is the idea of an orchestra playing a large Mahler Symphony within the confines of my listening room. (I've owned it since it early days and it never occurred to me to toss it.)
Since I did my room completely with diffraction and bass panels, with certain recordings the speakers just disappear.
Thanx Bill
Spent part of the weekend moving speakers around (inside outside back forward, toe-in, etc) and now have an acceptable solution - the sound stage is really quite good and the "pile up" at the speakers is resolved. Of course, it still depends on the quality of the recording but with a true stereo source the sound stage almost extends to the side walls and the depth and imaging which were always good have not been compromised.
The solution was pulling the speakers out another foot to 60" (inside measurement) with 6" of toe-in (outside measurement is 66").
As to the "clutter" behind the speakers, I feel the LP's act as diffusers and are not detrimental. However they did reduce the distance from the "wall" - I had the speakers in the same position before moving the LP's to their current location. Aesthetically the setup is better (approved by the boss AKA wife) than with LP's on the sides of the room.
Headed to Cuba in two days and hope to be able to see my wife's uncle whom she has not seen in 55 years! He is now 98 and still active. He was the director of the national symphony for many years and is highly regarded as a composer, conductor and teacher (Alfredo Diez-Nieto). In any case you guys will have a brief respite from my endless postings :).
Edits: 03/22/16 03/22/16 03/23/16
How far apart are the speakers and how far are they from the side walls?
Hopefully you can enjoy the fruits of your labor.It's too bad that you have to replace the carpet with laminate.
Swap the speakers L/R for tweeters 'in' and REDUCE toe.
Too much is never enough
I will give it a try but you realize your recommendation is diametrically opposed to Magnepan who suggest tweeters out for wider stage (in for better imaging) and more toe-in when the tweeters are inward so that the tweeters are further away than the bass panels from the listener.
When you have tweeeters in you can space the speakers further apart without the central image collapsing, That provides a larger soundstage. Since you have plenty of space to the sides you can space the speakers as far apart as 10' inside edge to inside edge with tweeters in. If your room is not too lively you can take the speakers to where the tweeters are as close as 36" from the sidewalls, that is often a better location for them in terms of balancing direct and reflected sound, worth a try in any case.
Perhaps these problems relate to the 3.X series, and could possibly be why I dislike my 3.6. I listen to Tympani IV-As and by positioning their T/M panels contiguous to their B panels, I never had big problems. I have succeeded in positioning the IV-As such that their sound arises directly from the panels themselves (as if that was where the musicians were located), BUT which then blooms into the room in a natural fashion. When I find certain recordings don't allow for this, I engage my C-9 'holocaust generator' and then the sound appears to bloom directly at the level of the speakers, (which being unnatural, may be the reason why some listeners dislike it).
With the great amount of front real estate that a T IVa covers you can't really escape the soundstage appearing to come from the speakers. Even if you manage to get imaging well beyond the edges of a 15 ft T IVa lateral spread, You would need to close your eyes and point to the apparent image position to convince yourself that an image is coming from outside the speaker spread.
I'm pleased to wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of the situation.
"I will give it a try but you realize your recommendation is diametrically opposed to Magnepan who suggest tweeters out for wider stage.."
It is somewhat dependent on room size. Maggie's soundstage can go wide and deep, I have had the best results with tweeters in and toe-in to a point behind my head. Your description still sounds like you are not there yet. The soundstage should go way past the side walls. I almost want to say you'll be hearing sounds that sound like they are outside or in the next room. You are close but not there yet. Keep experimenting.
When seated in a concert hall if the performers sound as if they outside or in the next room, there must be some big problem either with hall, or with one's hearing. However a lot depends on a given seating location and the ratio of direct to indirect or reflected sound. IME and generally speaking if all tickets were priced the same I believe it correct to say that few listeners would pick those seats where a large portion of the sound is reflected or indirect, and fewer yet where the sound seems to come from outside the room. I fail to understand why audio enthusiasts like 'airy' sound. I recall having read somewhere that no one wants to pay to hear the hall. (That's not to imply that anyone wants to listen to music in an anechoic chamber.)
"When seated in a concert hall if the performers sound as if they outside or in the next room, there must be some big problem..."
Not all music is recorded in a concert hall nor are all recordings limited to sounds captured inside a box. Have you never turned down the sound because you weren't sure where a particular sound was coming from because the spatial clues suggested the sound was someplace else?
The listener needn't forsake classical concert hall "captured inside a box" to hear sound arising from *outside or in the next room* (quoting myself here*). There is an abundance of classical music compositions which call for offstage sound contributions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offstage_brass_and_percussion
(quoting from the Wiki page):
"List of pieces that call for offstage instruments
Ludwig van Beethoven
Leonore Overture No. 3 - 1 trumpet
Hector Berlioz
Symphonie Fantastique - 1 oboe in the third movement.
Grand messe des morts (Requiem) - 4 brass bands, placed north, south, east and west of the audience
Havergal Brian
Symphony No. 1 (The Gothic) - Four groups, each containing 2 horns, 2 trumpets, 2 trombones, 2 tubas and 1 set of timpani
Benjamin Britten
Serenade for Tenor, Horn and Strings - the solo horn in the Epilogue
Gustav Mahler
Symphony No. 1 - 3 trumpets
Symphony No. 2 - 4 trumpets, 4-6 horns, bass drum with cymbals attached, triangle and timpani
Symphony No. 3 - Snare drums and posthorn
Symphony No. 6 - Cowbells and deep tubular bells
Symphony No. 7 - Cowbells
Symphony No. 8 - 4 trumpets and 3 trombones
Krzysztof Penderecki
Seven Gates of Jerusalem - 3 clarinets, 3 bassoons, contrabassoon, 4 horns, 3 trumpets, 4 trombones, 1 tuba
Sergei Prokofiev
Lieutenant Kijé Suite - 1 cornet
Ottorino Respighi
Feste Romane - 3 Buccine (3 soprano)
Pines of Rome - 6 Buccine (2 soprano, 2 tenor, 2 bass) and 1 trumpet
Church Windows - trumpet
Dmitri Shostakovich
Festive Overture - 4 horns, 3 trumpets and 3 trombones
Song of the Forests - 6 trumpets and 6 trombones
Richard Strauss
Eine Alpensinfonie - 12 horns, 2 trumpets and 2 trombones
Ein Heldenleben - 3 trumpets
Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky
1812 Overture - "Open" instrumentation consisting of "any extra brass instruments" available.
Giuseppe Verdi
Requiem - 4 trumpets
Luisa Miller - 4 horns
William Walton
Belshazza"
Whether seated in the concert hall 'box' or listening to recorded music at home, those offstage instuments sound like they are outside or in the next room because they are indeed there! (And moreover, easily distinguished from all the in the box sound.)
The spatial cues from the recording should provide a sense of the original acoustic's dimensions which should provide a larger soundstage than the size of the listening room. Necessarily this would result in sounds appearing to come from behind the front wall and beyond the side walls. The room and positioning will determine whether this is actually achieved. The main point is having sufficient reduction in the room's refllective contribution and increase its timing relative to direct sound so that the listening room's size cues do not dominate the cues forming the soundstage.
Having sounds appear to come from the venue's walls well outside the listening room's confines is precisely what you are trying to achieve. It is not an imposition of an "airy" sound by the system, it is freeing the sound from room effects, positioning problems and speaker polar pattern artifacts
The 'RULE' is that when something doesn't work to your expectation to CAN the rules and experiment.
You can't hurt anything.When I placed MY panels? I even put 'em with BACKSIDE to me. Yep, I experimented with listening to the pole piece side. Just like my ancient MG-1s That didn't last.
Part of the solution MAY be the mid / high crossover. If it is asymmetrical, than the tweeter will LOBE and not project 'straight' out. I take advantage of that.
I should also add I have trouble following 'rules' and might even have impulse control issues.
OR?
What are you going to believe, your EARS or the Directions?
Too much is never enough
Edits: 03/21/16
and get a cheap laser distance meter for exact speaker placement equidistant to listening position and walls. Forget a tape measure as not accurate enough.
You will be very surprised at the results. Sounds from each speaker will have a perfect reverberant field with each other.
On my 1.6s with the edge stile, I use THAT as my reference point. The FIRST thing is speaker to wall from 2-points per speaker. Each side. Than do the math, determine toe angle and where they 'cross'.
You MIGHT find it of value to get a DRAWING of the room made or MAKE it in Google Sketchup. A free drawing program can help with both setup and record keeping.
Too much is never enough
Let your PC do advanced math using REW to do toe-in and speaker positioning. Then you can actually see what you're doing and how it impacts the listening position's frequency response, waterfall decay, group delay, & RT60. Diminishing returns (or death) sets in at some point. Every little change including the room treatments are clearly visible and comparisons are easy. A tweaker's paradise.
The stiles are a great reference point.
No MATTER the appoach to perfection:
It is important to KEEP RECORDS. Measurements and dimensions. Any room treatment changes.
If you print the 20 or 30 pages from REW every time you do a new setup, be SURE to organize them in some fashion. It is more than possible that improving parameter 'X' will result in another parameter getting worse. At least on paper.
AT some point you must decide your PRIORITIES and if the UberFuerher will allow the changes required for 'perfection'.
Too much is never enough
Pictureguy has it right. Tweeters in, less toe in. And maybe pull them out some more.
Edits: 03/21/16
which may not be practical - would be to move all the LP storage cabinets from behind the speakers. You've got good distance to wall, but I can't help but think that they are getting the way of having the speakers disappear.
Hi Neo,
Here is a suggestion based upon my personal experience. It looks like you have two turntables placed in the left corner of your room, one being directly in the corner.
Because of the buildup of bass nodes in corners I discovered improved clarity by moving my tt away from a corner. That cartridge/stylus are more susceptible to air-borne energy than we might guess.
If you can't move it to a side wall maybe you could shift it to the right and place one of your LP cabinets in the corner? At the same time, it looks like both of your tables are in line of the rear wave of your LC speaker. That may add to the issue.
Admittedly it would take some effort to move things around but at least that will cost you nothing by time. ;^)
"You can't know what the "best" is unless you have heard everything, and keep in mind that given individual tastes, there really isn't any such thing." HP
Some good ideas. The table in the corner is a Linn Sondek and is really not being used. It might surprise some but the other table, a Denon DP55-K (direct drive) outperforms the Linn. Both tables have Magnepan Unitrac I arms. Changing location is really not in the cards, but do you think lowering the dust cover during use would minimize the transmitted vibrations?
With the dust cover removed.
First off, I'm not an engineer so take my points with that perspective.
In all my years in this hobby I've mostly played my tts with the cover removed. One exception was a Kuzma Stabi which had a hinged, very heavy oak frame with a plate glass top. Otherwise I agree with G Squared.
While a dust cover may seem like it protects the arm/cartridge/cantilever from air-borne vibrations, I suspect it may instead be a transmitter for them. Being larger and more flexible than the arm/cartridge/cantilever my guess is it may "gather in" vibrations which it then transfers mechanically to the whole turntable assembly. But I can't reference any studies on this.
All I can say for certain is moving my table out of a corner improved the clarity, and even that experience was with the Kuzma with the very heavy lid.
Said another way, look at all the high end tables from $5K to $100K or more. How many of them include a dust cover intended to be left in place while playing?
"You can't know what the "best" is unless you have heard everything, and keep in mind that given individual tastes, there really isn't any such thing." HP
For the same reasons we eschewed box speakers we don't want dust covers on while playing.. If you don't want to remove the dust cover then you need to damp the cover.
My solution is to glue viscoelastic foam (like memory foam mattresses) to a ceramic tile large enough to cover a large portion of the dustcover and add a weight if there remains a bit of bloat to the sound. If an additional weight makes no difference then just don't bother with it.
Don't do the laminate if you intend to keep using the room for listening. If you don't like the rug as it is just put an area rug on top of it. If it has a noisy loud pattern on it then the rest of the old rug will never take your eye's attention. I must say the MAe West boudoir aesthetic is quite unique for a listening room. Two thumbs up..
I see that you found a solution - as in play recordings with actual stereo in them rather than panned mono. Lots of classical and quite a bit of jazz is recorded in true stere mixed out of 2 or 3 channel masters. Very little pop is recorded that way, definitely none of the studio product. Some pop live performances were recorded in real stereo, but most took the feeds off the guitar amps and vocal mics rather than record from in front of the speakers in the venue..
You may be able to get a better soundstage with tweeters in and a rather sharp toe in. IIRC I cam across a statement that they setup the XO to time align on tweeters in for the 3.7i, rather than tweeters out and face forwards as in the 3.6, but I am not sure if that is true. If it is then that orientation should provide a better soundstage and more precise more saturated and bigger images and also allow you to extend the speaker's spread somewhat wider. I would suggest you check FR after you are satisfied with the spatial performance and decide what to do from that point if the FR is not quite right since there are many ways to gently EQ via cabling, tube rolling and tweeter attenuators or chokes (if too bright(, but there are not likely to be a great many placements to provide an optimal spatial performance.
I would suggest that for every position you try play a mono track before you start listening to stereo, and make sure you have a stable mono image first. Use the fake ficus to try and fix it if the mono image is not stable at all freq or pulls to one side....
Here I am about to confuse things as the distance between seems similar: I have 1.7's : Tweeter edge to tweeter edge is 6'6". I am 4' from the back wall, which except for record cabinet which is 3'6" My back wall are FREE except for three 3' square sculptured plaques of wood. Which is to say you have a 'mess' back there with plastic piles as high as the speakers. I am saying free the back wall if you can. On two mike Blue Note recordings I get what you describe : a sound stage that truly a stage . Hope that this not abrasive. My ceilings are 10' with parquet floors so the room is pretty alive.
Sorry Satie this was meant for Neolith
The carpet has to go -- wife's orders. Replacement carpet not an option -- wife's orders. Want to see how high I can jump, just ask :).
Wow that room is breath taking ;)
Love the Sansui Tuner.I personally like the occasional 'trapped' instrument inside the panel (in relation to the other insturments). Often it's a cymbal or trumpet in the upper registers. If I wanted to experiment with making it more cohesive I'd start with moving the panels with the tweeters in.
Edits: 03/19/16
Thanks for the kudos. Actually that's only 1/2 the room. Behind the chair is a kitchenette and bath plus a work area. The best part is that it is separate from the house - virtually no WAF to deal with and no complaints about "noise".
Great system
Have you tried reducing the tow in?
Wall-to-wall carpeting is really good for a listening room. Some designers of listening rooms say it is more or less a must.
My 3.6 are spread further apart, 2.5 m, tweeters out. Listening position is 4 m away. The speakers are rather heavily toed-in to get a good central focus. The opening angle to the tweeters are about 45 degrees. Still, the sweet spot is very limited. Imageing is mostly determined by the recordings. Surprisingly few recordings are made in true stereo, panorated multi mono is the norm. Playing classical music really expands the soundstage, also some older jazz recordings and stuff like Pink Floyd.
After fooling around most of the day with position, I found the solution. I put on a test record (Opus 3 Depth of Image) and sure enough the sound stage went well wide of the speakers and the depth went past the wall!. Leave it to the Swedes :).
Edits: 03/19/16
The toe-in is about 6" and seemed to give the best frequency sweep but I will take your suggestion to heart and see if less/more solves the issue.
Measure from outside edge of speaker to back wall. Repeat for the other side.
You now have 2 measures of speaker distance to wall. Say they are 48" and 50" for a net difference of 2".
measure the width of the triangle straight across the room.
The triangle you have is short side-2" Hypotenuse is the width of the speaker and the 3rd side is the 90 degree angle from the short side to where it touches the hypotenuse.
Do the math. You will be able to compute the ACTUAL ANGLE of Toe. Further doodling with pen and calculator will show where they 'cross' in relation to where you sit.
Too much is never enough
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